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To: Forest Keeper
The prayers of the people on earth go directly to God.

Amen. Dead people are not mediums between men and God. We have to ask ourselves "what point is there in believing God created a transit to Himself other than Jesus Christ?"

The answer is because he who would control that earthly transit controls other people. It's the human condition of fallen man to seek control over other people and at the same time, to submit to another's power over us. We are schizophrenic without God's grace.

But Scripture is clear there is no intermediary between men and God but one man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). No idols, no falling down to the stock of a tree, no prayers to dead people who cannot save us.

But then, in order for eternal life to actually BE eternal, you impose a second condition, that of repeating the sacraments along with everything else one needs to do in order to keep eternal life. This second condition is not found in the verse, nor do I believe it is found anywhere in scripture. Eternal means forever.

Amen. Grace cannot be bartered for; it is a gift of God. Once given, eternally saved. And God's grace was given to His children from before the foundation of the world, not according to him who runs or him who wills, but according to God who shows mercy" (Romans 9:16).

11,339 posted on 03/15/2007 11:01:03 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper

As you rattle off 1 Timothy 2:5, let me remind you that you still owe me an explanation why Timothy while alive may pray for the king (1 Tim 2:1-5), but once dead he may not, doctor.


11,345 posted on 03/15/2007 12:20:18 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; annalex
We have to ask ourselves "what point is there in believing God created a transit to Himself other than Jesus Christ?" The answer is because he who would control that earthly transit controls other people.

That's an excellent insight, Dr. E. I can see no other reason. It seems to me that Catholicism is dependent on an idea that God chose to transfer great power away from Himself and install it into certain men. In the OT, it appears that God was fully content and up to the job of executing His role as sovereign Himself:

1 Sam 8:6-8 : 6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you.

1 Sam 12:17-19 : 17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call upon the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king." 18 Then Samuel called upon the Lord, and that same day the Lord sent thunder and rain. So all the people stood in awe of the Lord and of Samuel. 19 The people all said to Samuel, "Pray to the Lord your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king."

I don't know what has changed such that God now needs help. :)

11,369 posted on 03/16/2007 1:22:56 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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