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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii
This shows what I believe to be the Catholic attitude that one should not look to the Bible first to find Christianity, but rather one should look first to the Fathers' interpretations of the Bible to find Christianity

Of course. This is not attitude, this is the very truth. You want Christianity, come to the Church. If you go to the Bible first, fine, but it will lead you to the Church anyway.

What sort of unwritten tradition are you talking about?

well, for example, there is nothing in the Scripture that teaches that good works are a mere fruit of faith. It is then a product of Protestant unscriptural tradition. Obviouslly, all tradition gets written down at one point.

If 15 meant Mary then there's only one offspring,

Correct, only one offspring, Christ, crushes the serpent.

FROM NOW ON, Christ will have enmity for the spawn of satan?

Yes. Why does it not make sense? Is Satan real today?

in verse 13, "the woman" meant Eve, in verse 15 "the woman" meant Mary, and in verse 16 "the woman" meant Eve again

As is clear each time from the verses themselves; they indeed reflect the symmetry between Eve and Mary.

verse 15 could have meant "any" or "all" women generally, but not Mary individually

That makes no sense. How many Christs are there?

11,295 posted on 03/13/2007 5:42:15 PM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; kawaii
FK: "This shows what I believe to be the Catholic attitude that one should not look to the Bible first to find Christianity, but rather one should look first to the Fathers' interpretations of the Bible to find Christianity."

Of course. This is not attitude, this is the very truth. You want Christianity, come to the Church. If you go to the Bible first, fine, but it will lead you to the Church anyway.

The Bible will lead one to God's Church, yes. But to the RCC subset of it, no. The growth of "Bible-believing" churches worldwide is one example. The RCC is another because no one would be fit to become a Catholic based only on a reading of the Bible. Of all the converts to Catholicism, I would imagine that only a small handful would honestly claim to convert because of only their readings of scripture, without Catholic interpretation. They would say that Tradition won them over.

FK: "If 15 meant Mary then there's only one offspring,"

Correct, only one offspring, Christ, crushes the serpent.

Here is the passage:

Gen 3:13-16 : 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals!You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband,and he will rule over you."

If 15 is read your way then there is only enmity between Mary and satan, as OPPOSED to all other people (or at least believers). Do you think satan has enmity toward you? I know for sure he has enmity toward me. I also toward him. The woman's "seed" refers to man generally, and Christ specifically. There is no Biblical evidence that satan went after Mary especially, over and above the way he went after any other believer. I would expect to see such evidence if there is only enmity between satan and Mary.

FK: "... FROM NOW ON, Christ will have enmity for the spawn of satan?"

Yes. Why does it not make sense? Is Satan real today?

If offspring ONLY means Christ, then that strains Christ's pre-existence. I thought it was generally accepted that satan was already banished at this point. I.e., there was already enmity between Christ and satan, including any spawn. It would be superfluous for God to announce it here. If, however, offspring includes all men, or all believers, then that matches better because we know that satan has enmity toward all of us and acts upon it. God could have put an impenetrable barrier between satan and men. Clearly He did not with Adam and Eve, and this announcement confirmed that He would also not do so with the rest of mankind.

FK: "... in verse 13, "the woman" meant Eve, in verse 15 "the woman" meant Mary, and in verse 16 "the woman" meant Eve again..."

As is clear each time from the verses themselves; they indeed reflect the symmetry between Eve and Mary.

There is no symmetry present because there is no comparison made or implied. Look at the flow of the passage without using the Catholic lens. There is no way in the universe a straight reading of this scripture leads anyone to think of Mary for a moment. The idea was manufactured later in order to glorify Mary. While many Jews certainly blew it on recognizing Christ, they were supposed to be looking for a Messiah. I'm not aware they were ever looking for a Mary figure. That would mean that every single OT Jew, especially the righteous, got it all wrong on this prophecy. How many other OT prophecies were completely missed by the whole world until the RCC came along?

11,325 posted on 03/14/2007 6:03:04 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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