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To: D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; HarleyD
FK: "We are not partners with God and we are not cooperators with God. He literally owns us and we are His slaves. This is a good thing."

Again, please understand, nothing personal here, but this is in my view slander against God. And far removed from Christianity down through its history. Why on earth anyone would love Jesus, flock to him and die for him, if this was what he taught about His Father?

I've already posted some of Paul's writings on our slavery, and as to ownership there is this:

1 Cor 6:19-20 : 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own ; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Notice he does not take a legitimate avenue and say that we were made, or that we were preserved. No, he says we were BOUGHT. That makes Him our owner outright. We are bought and paid for with the blood of Christ. The Spirit is the seal. As new slaves to God's righteousness, Paul develops the idea in saying that we are to honor our master with our bodies, i.e. in all that we do:

1 Cor 10:31 : 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

This is the type of command a slave receives from his master.

This is just me speculating here, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I do get the impression that your revulsion to these ideas of slavery is based on looking at it from only one angle. When most people of their mid- thirties or older think of slavery, they think of "Roots". That is certainly a barbaric form of slavery and it did happen in the Bible (Israelites in Egypt). This was race-based slavery and God obviously disapproved of that. However, it was not the only kind of slavery.

In Biblical times, "normal" slavery was not race-based, it was more class-based. It could be compared with what we would call indentured servitude. Poor people routinely sold themselves into slavery in order to pay off debts, etc. Some even did it in order to secure three squares a day and a roof. They were otherwise unable to take care of themselves. This was not seen as an evil at all, and the Bible appears to support that. We are even told about how slaves are to be treated by faithful men:

Deut 15:12-15 : 12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

Eph 6:9 : 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Col 4:1 : 1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

God had every chance in the world to condemn this kind of slavery, but He never does. Jesus never condemns it while He was here either. Paul had a golden opportunity to do it in Philemon, but passed. Again, this does not mean that God condones the type of forced slavery that we see all over the world today. No, He does hate that. It's just that in Biblical times the concept had a different meaning for the most part. It was simply an economic reality of the times.

So, when I speak of being a joyful slave to God and His righteousness, I am not being a masochist at all! :) In one sense it is a way to describe our respective stations. God is all, He is everything, He is the master, I am the servant. He always knows best and I am to obey, not question. God loves His slaves and will always take care of them no matter what, infinitely better than they could ever take care of themselves. God also has an individual and deep relationship with each of those who serve Him. There is frequent communication. God causes His servants to grow and mature in faith, and on and on and on .....

Don't forget that at the same time we are God's slaves, we are also His children. The Bible uses both comparisons and both are valid and do not contradict each other. Well, I hope all this helps to explain at least some of where we are coming from. :)

11,172 posted on 02/28/2007 1:31:52 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr
D, the Bible is very clear that we are to love our slaves, but says nothing to condemn the concept of slavery. In fact, it encourages it.

Respect for authority is also commanded as a must because all authority comes from God. The whole Bible is about empowerment, that is – authority given to some. The Apostles are commanded to love each other (cf. John 15:12)

+Paul teaches that even Christ is give the Kingdom over[sic] "to God, even the Father" [KJV] (cf. 1Cor 15:24), and that man is the head of a woman, Christ is the head of every man, and "God is the head of Christ" (cf. 1Cor 11:13) which sound like another seedling of Gnostic/Arian heresy; see also John 14:28).

Those who are in a position of authority are to be merciful and forgiving, however. Those in authority are to be humble. See all of Matthew 18. So, the Bible does not abolish inequality; it fact it encourages it; slaves are not masters and masters are not slaves; women are not men and men are not women; kings are not subjects and subjects are not kings.

But those who are above are to humble themselves and not use their power to do evil but to be merciful and kind. No one is equal in love either. We are to love God first and foremost. We are to love others as ourselves, because we are all His creation, and none of us is better or without sin.

11,175 posted on 02/28/2007 8:10:13 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50
FK: "We are not partners with God and we are not cooperators with God. He literally owns us and we are His slaves. This is a good thing."

Absolutely correct FK. I might add the verse:

Our Father is very clear that all souls are His. This, of course, raises an interesting question when He states,

If all souls are the Lord's to begin with, why were we "bought" and from whom were we bought? I believe the answer lies in your statement:

God doesn't condemn us. We condemn ourselves. He has stated what it will take to be holy and only He can pay that price. He pays His price for our redemption and redeems us. I especially like the verse:

It is only the church of God which He purchased with His blood. What is rolled up in all of this is 1) original sin, 2) election, 3) perseverance. Three petals of the TULIP.

11,187 posted on 03/01/2007 5:00:09 AM PST by HarleyD
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