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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "But if you want a bottom line, then the lost are slaves to sin and the saved are slaves to righteousness, just as the Bible says."

Christ never taught that. There is no love in slavery. ...

You keep saying that as if the only words that count in the NT were directly quoted from the mouth of Christ. The WHOLE Bible is either GOD'S word or it is not. Is what Paul said God's word or isn't it?

People are captivated with pleasure. They keep coming back for more. That holds true for the 'saved' and 'unsaved.'

I disagree. The saved are not captivated with pleasure (sin). Christ has set them free:

John 8:34-36 : 34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

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The Bible says it plainly that it is God our Savior "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." [1Tim 2:4] Obviously He doesn't compel them, and that is His choice.

If we take the verse as a decree, then God fails. I don't believe that God can fail. I agree with you that it is God's choice not to compel all men. I would say rather that He only gives irresistible grace to His elect. For example:

John 6:44 : 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice that the only ones who are raised at the last day are the ones drawn by the Father. The Father does not inwardly draw all men.

John 6:65 : 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

2 Cor 4:6 : 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Who does "our" and "us" refer to? Surely it does not refer to all men. It only refers to believers. Finally:

John 5:21 : 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

This stresses that it is God's sovereign choice as to who gets life, not that God is a rubber stamp to the wishes of man.

11,153 posted on 02/27/2007 12:13:52 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
You keep saying that as if the only words that count in the NT were directly quoted from the mouth of Christ

That sets the stage and the basis. Without it anyone could say anything he wanted and claim it came from Christ.

I disagree. The saved are not captivated with pleasure (sin).

So, pleasure is sin? I guess that makes displeasure, by necessity, a "blessing?"

If we take the verse as a decree, then God fails

Only in the Protestant mindset. Once you recognize that God gave us free will, He doesn't fail; we do. He would like all ment ot be saved, but many of us will do our darnest to resist being with God (arrogance and pride).

Notice that the only ones who are raised at the last day are the ones drawn by the Father. The Father does not inwardly draw all men

Everyone is raised from the ground (cf. Rev 20:12); and the seas gave up its dead and they were judged according to their deeds (cf. Rev 20:13) — all (believers and nonbelievers) are judged according to their deeds. Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire (cf. Rev 20:14)

11,156 posted on 02/27/2007 1:49:28 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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