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To: D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; HarleyD
If your interpretation of scripture ends up with robots or slaves, you've gone off wrong. If free will is an illusion, then all experience is an illusion and we might as well debate our dreams.

Free will is an illusion if one thinks it can trump God's will. His will is what reigns over and controls everything. People who believe that they are in control are indeed living under an illusion. For example:

Prov 16:9 : 9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps .

Prov 20:24 : 24 A man's steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way?

The Bible clearly speaks of our slavery:

Rom 6:6 : 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Rom 6:16-18 : 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin , you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

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That one can read scripture and come to this conclusion should amaze us and it emphasizes that anything is possible with sola scriptura as the foundation.

What conclusions do you come to in reading these scriptures? What amazes me is how desperately people need to feel they are in control of their lives, even when God is being discussed. People push God away because, apparently, they know better than God what is best for them. I suppose I am not as smart as those folks. Not only am I content to have God be in control of me, but I praise His Holy name for it. I am proud to be an eternal exemption on God's taxes. :)

11,149 posted on 02/27/2007 11:05:15 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Free will is an illusion if one thinks it can trump God's will.

I'm not sure if this is a yes or a no? If God wishes us to have free will, I don't know how this trumps Him rather it would seem to be God's will that we do and that it's not an illusion.

What conclusions do you come to in reading these scriptures?

I see a nice parallel rhetorical construction of sin and righteousness. I see an exhortation to choose God as Lord and be truly free. I see it in conjuction with all scripture and in context of my personal experience of freedom in Christ.

I do not see it as losing my personality or my will, rather aligning my will with God, dying to self as in order to become what I was created to be. True repentance is key, but saying the sinner's prayer is not the last choice we make.

What amazes me is how desperately people need to feel they are in control of their lives, even when God is being discussed. People push God away because, apparently, they know better than God what is best for them.

Yes, this is a very poor choice, pride is a killer. However, true humility is different from slavery.

Thanks very much for your reply.

11,151 posted on 02/27/2007 11:49:16 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: Forest Keeper
I am proud to be an eternal exemption on God's taxes.

LOL. Amen. Gratitude is our correct orientation.

11,152 posted on 02/27/2007 11:54:04 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper
Free will is an illusion if one thinks it can trump God's will. His will is what reigns over and controls everything

Why do you deny God's right to give men free will? Deuteronomy makes it clear that the Jews understood it that way and certainly the Apostolic Church has all along.

11,155 posted on 02/27/2007 1:30:37 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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