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To: annalex
Friend, The Binding and Loosing are directly tied to the keys to the Kingdom by Christ Himself. He says to Peter, I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven - and whatsoever...shall be bound in heaven... The thought is one continuing thought. He then repeats it later in Scripture. It does not have to be legislative. It can mean a variety of things.

If you look at Scripture, you have many examples:

Colossians 3:14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Hebrews 2 Warning to Pay Attention 1We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

1 Corinthians 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Binding and loosing are not related to saving a soul. Only God saves. Only God draws. Only God regenerates.

Here is something else: a Church capable of uniform decision that determines just excommunication. It cannot be local. It has therefore to be hierarchical.
Tell that to the the millions who exist in exactly such structures. Our local church votes on church discipline as did the Corinthians. It didn't have to go to a hierachical structure. Paul instructed the local church to expel the immoral brother. Yes, we have leaders. But those leaders are accountable to God and us as the body of Christ. Those leaders can not get together in a council of other leaders and disposess us of church membership. It takes the local body to decide that something has merited excommunication (which only removes you from local church membership, not the universal body of Christ if you were ever a part of it).

Here we have an apostle ready to assert temporal power through his bishop over a local church.
While it is true,Paul is as an overseer over this church - we never see Paul in a legislative role deciding church discipline. He advises them. He counsels them. He does not lord power over them. Corinth was one messed up church. Paul is coming on a visit and is basically saying am I going to scold you or love on you. He isn't saying by the power vested in me as bishop, you're about to get whacked and believe-you-me I have the power to do it. In fact, where do we see that Paul was a Bishop or that he had power over the bishop? Certainly, he was extremely influential. That can not be overstated. He mentors Timothy and others. Even though he isn't the Pastor, he shepherds various local flocks. But, you don't see him in any kind of a formal hierarchical role. Rather,Paul was basically a missionary and a pastoral mentor.

Your examples from the Acts sometime use the "church" in other senses. But we have enough scripture, as well as the practices of the Early Church, to say that it was hierarchical.

Okay, I think I see where the confusion is here. The term church. When the Bible refers to the church, the bride of Christ, it is that great universal body of all believers - not a centralized organization. Paul writes to people. He doesn't write to an organization. He praises or admonishes people. That is one (very common) definition of who is the church. When John writes, it is the same...to the church which is at Ephesus doesn't refer to a hierarchical organization, but to a group of believers that live in Ephesus. At the time of his writing, many probably didn't even have a formal meeting place much less a centralized authority to report to.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."- Here the church is seen as the group of people that Jesus purchased. Jesus in turn does appoint overseers, or undershepherds to help guide His local flock. Sometimes, on rare occasion, you do have the equiv. of an associational meeting where some point is to be decided and all of the overseers and apostles as well as non-officed people get together to talk.

However, there is no Scriptural evidence (or even early historical evidence) that the church (all saved people) was set up so that it would ultimately report to a centralized organization. There were bishops at Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem. But they were local. The early bishops did not yield to Rome. That came later. Each overseer tended to his own area. And the local bodies, led by the Holy Spirit and their local leadership would be the ones usually making decisions. Occasionally a Paul or Peter would provide guidance and influence. But it was mostly taken care of locally.

Why is it dispositive as to his role as pope? He is the connection to Christ's ministry on earth.
We have Christ one on one. Why do we need a third party? Likewise, we have the sweet Holy Spirit. Why pray to a human to intercede?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Paul cannot claim it, and the other apostles were clearly subordinate to Peter, given the keys and the "feed my sheep" episodes.

Sorry. It's not a clear as you would like it to be. And apparently, Paul never recognized "it" since he never made mention in his many letters that Peter was the head of Christ's church on earth. Neither did anyone else.

Peter did not have to evengelize anyone at that point.
Jesus commanded him and the other believers in Matthew 28 to do so. So, yes, I believe to be obedient, he had to evangelize and disciple.

He was however, the root making all the evangelizing work possible.
Scripture?

It also doesn't matter if he ever was in Rome, -- althouigh we have archaelogical evidence that he was.
What evidence?

Papacy does not come from Rome, or Avignon, or any other particular place. It comes from Christ's charge to Peter.

And, here we will just disagree.

Annalex, this is why we Protestants push the point. Does it really matter to me if Peter was ever in Rome? Not really. I think he was martyred by Nero and was probably at some point there. Was that his main ministry or even his headquarters? Sorry, I don't see it. You see, What matters is that an extra-biblical life has been created for Peter, and based upon something other that Scripture, be it tradition or whatever, MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people are looking to mere men (as Peter's supposed successors) to be their conduit between themselves and Christ.

People look to Rome to define doctrine, rather than at Scripture themselves. Catholics, by in large, are some of the most Scripturally illiterate people I have met, but don't take that statement too hard- I think most people regardless of denomination are pretty much in the dark as far as Scripture goes. Protestants believe because their family believes that way, or the preacher preaches it that way, or they just "feel it". They don't study however and as a result we are losing entire countries. Catholics are similar in that Rome has convinced most of them that Scripture is really for the clerics to understand. Just do everything we tell you to do and you'll be fine. It is sad on both counts.

Scripture is where the living Word is revealed. It's where we find salvation. It isn't in doing. It isn't in following some Prelate's instructions. It isn't in following the family tradition. It is through a simple acceptance of Jesus Christ's finished work on Calvary in our life and that alone that we are saved.

We could keep on and keep on, but really the key remains the same and always shall. The key is SOLA or not SOLA. Is it faith ALONE by Grace ALONE through Christ ALONE and the truth from SCRIPTURE alone?? Or is it faith Plus, Grace plus, Christ plus, Scripture plus? You will probably argue on some of those that the Catholic church is Sola. After thoroughly studying what the Catholic church believes (from your sources as to not be prejudiced), I'm sad to say that the Solas are not to be found in Catholicism. It's always plus something. And, that plus something is undergirded on a foundation that takes one verse in Matthew 16 and conflates it into an entire system of Religion which is not Scriptural.

Well, it appears that we will not agree. But I hope that you've enjoyed the discussion. I think it is important to discuss things moderately (not in the RINO sort of way, but with temperance).
1,109 posted on 12/11/2006 6:22:22 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger
Binding and loosing are not related to saving a soul. Only God saves.

I agree. Dinfiong and loosing refers to legislating. The Key refetrs to access to heaven, -- saving souls. The Catohlic teaching is that while the bishops are all with legislative and teaching authority, only the Pope can legislate on matters of salvation directly. This is consistent in how the powers to bind and loose are given twice to both Peter and the apostles, and the keys to Peter only.

Tell that to the the millions who exist in exactly such structures.

Yes, that is exactly what I am telling them: that communities of faith outside of the hierarchical structures of the apostlic Church cannot fulfill the task given in Matthew 18:17. Instead, they fracture Christianity into "denominations". But, "Is Christ divided?".

But, you don't see him in any kind of a formal hierarchical role

You don't see because you don't look. Timothy and Titus he consecrated as bishops and instructed how to run the local church they are heading up. to corinthinas he shows the "rod". You can spin it away from formal authority, and indeed Paul is a kind man, but it is spin. We see heirarchy, pleanty of it in Corinthians, and in acts, and in Timothy and Titus.

early bishops did not yield to Rome

Pope No. 3 was St. Clement, and he wrote to the same wayward Corinthians one generation after St. Paul, and told them to get their act together. Nopw Clement was in Rome, and St. John was in Ephesus, and a living apostle too. Still Clement exercised papal authority over his head.

Why do we need a third party?

Because Christ set it up this way. In the Gospel he put together the apostolic college and told them to shepherd His flock. If Christ wanted to send the Holy Spirit individually to every beleiver, He certainly could have done so. He didn't.

What evidence?

Peter's tomb. See the link I gave you. Here it is again: St. Peter and Rome

Scripture is where the living Word is revealed

If so, the Scripture would tell us so. It doesn't. Christ did not give us a book. He gave us the Church. That is in the Scripture. (On Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition)

I hope that you've enjoyed the discussion

Of course. Thank you.

1,121 posted on 12/11/2006 8:08:26 PM PST by annalex
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To: Blogger; annalex
Our local church votes on church discipline as did the Corinthians. It didn't have to go to a hierachical structure.

It's clear that the hierarchal structure did not emerge until well into the second century and even then was not fully adopted for at least another 50-100 years after that. One example is St. Athansius using his position of authority, on his own, to instruct churches under him what the Canon was. He did this without first clearing it with Rome. Today that would not happen.

The point being that the authority structure emerged after the end of the Apostolic Era, it was not a product of it. Now if you were to argue that it was the result of divine intervention that would make for an interesting discussion.

BTW, I really enjoyed the posts on this topic. I think it's a very exciting area to study.

1,152 posted on 12/12/2006 7:25:43 AM PST by wmfights (Romans 8:37-39)
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