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To: Uncle Chip
But you still have to explain away the Hebrew copies of Tobit and Ecclesiasticus found at Qumran

What??? just because something was found at Qumran we're supposed to put it in the canon of scripture. A lot of things were found there, should we put the rules of the religious sect living there in the canon as well???

No, but you can accept the Church's judgement that these books are Scripture, rather than following the lead of Christ-denying rabbis, and peddling the absurd lie that the books were 'added' to the Scriptures by someone (usually the Council of Trent, though how that could be when we Orthodox regard them as Scripture, but regard Trent as an heretical conventicle is quite beyond rational comprehentions), rather than removed by the 'reformers'.

The point is that Qumran lays to rest the false claim that the LXX is somehow inferior to the Masorete, as it confirms that the LXX conforms to the pre-Christian Jewish texts, while the Masorete deviate from them on many points. This very much questions you assertion that the anti-Christian rabbis preserved 'the text God gave them'. They tossed out books that gave too much support to Christian positions. Hardly 'preserving the text God gave them.' The protestant insistence on the shortened canon of the Masorete strikes me quite frankly as a Judaizing heresy.

Also, you are simply wrong that Origen 'composed' the fifth column of his Hexalpa. The LXX translation had been used by Greek speaking Jews from before the time of Christ. The fourth column of Origen's Hexapla was a more recent (c. 130 AD) translation of the now-lost proto-Masorete into Greek, which showed influences from the already extant LXX.

10,985 posted on 02/21/2007 9:50:58 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .u)
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To: The_Reader_David
The point is that Qumran lays to rest the false claim that the LXX is somehow inferior to the Masorete, as it confirms that the LXX conforms to the pre-Christian Jewish texts

And how do you know that it conforms if you don't have one of those "pre-Christian Jewish tests"? Oh, but wait a minute we do have one. It is the full book of Isaiah found at Qumran and guess what the LXX fails to conform to it.

while the Masorete deviate from them on many points.

Wrong --- the Masoretic text matches this book of Isaiah found at Qumran nearly perfectly but the LXX is way off.

They tossed out books that gave too much support to Christian positions. Hardly 'preserving the text God gave them.' The protestant insistence on the shortened canon of the Masorete strikes me quite frankly as a Judaizing heresy.

The Jews believed that part of the reason for their troubles was all the Greek books that they had brought into the synagogues and temple that were not supposed to be there. So they threw out everything written in Greek or that was not originally written in Greek. Some of these materials may have been what Jesus was referring to when he said: "by your traditions you make the law of God of no effect". They were watering down the scriptures with things that were not scripture.

Also, you are simply wrong that Origen 'composed' the fifth column of his Hexalpa.

Biblical scholars nearly all agree that he was composing and revising it as he went along using the other Greek columns to try to make it match the Hebrew in column one.

The LXX translation had been used by Greek speaking Jews from before the time of Christ.

They might have had good Greek translation of the first five books at most but there was no archetype for any of the others. Anyone who thought they knew enough Hebrew and Greek might have attempted a translation, some passages might have been good, some bad, but there was no fixed archetype before Christ or even up to Origen, merely a multiplicity of Greek translations of the OT that people called by the name "Septuagint". What people have in their hands today and call the "Septuagint" came from the 5th column of Origen which he labelled "LXX".

One question that you cannot answer is that if there actually was a certifiable Septuagint in the hands of the church and it had a long pedigree, then why was Origen revising and rewriting it in his fifth column???? Why did he have to use Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotian for his other columns??? Why didn't he put this famous "Septuagint" there in one of those columns??? The reason was that there was no famous fixed Septuagint for him to put there. So he used the nearest thing he could find to match the Hebrew text --- and that Hebrew text had been fixed from atleast the council of Jamnia and there was no other and it was passed on to the Masoretes.

10,989 posted on 02/22/2007 4:40:28 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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