Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: kosta50
But I don't see any evidence that the whole thing was intended for the gentiles from the get-go.

In this context, lemme try it this way. Was Adam a Jew? No, because Abraham was the first Jew. YET, the whole foundation of Orthodox theosis is trying to get back to the original state of Adam, right? Well, since Adam was neither Jew nor Gentile, it should be open to all. I'm not basing this on anything, but I thought it was worth a shot. :)

FK: "I would think that Jesus had no problem in associating with the Gentile riffraff."

Do we have references to that, other than an occasional Canaan woman?

Yes. One example, again, being the centurion. Whether Jesus was preaching Judaism (as you said earlier) to him or not, He DID associate with him. Jesus was famous for taking supper and lodging with known sinners. They were the ones who needed Him most. If the plan all along was going to be to officially bring the Gentiles in, it would have been very odd to me if Jesus DIDN'T give us a preview of this. I believe He did. And even besides Matt. 28 we have other evidence of Jesus foretelling the inclusion of the Gentiles:

Matt 24:14 : And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

John 10:16 : I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

---------------

FK: "In fact, if all He did was restate, then there would have been no movement to kill Him."

He was not killed because He came to restate but because He was rumored to have claimed that was the Son of God. That was a capital offense in Israel.

Yes, that is precisely my point. By making His claim He was doing a lot more than restating IN THEIR EYES. Maybe I'm not sure what you mean by "Judaism". There was the Judaism of the OT righteous, and then there was the Judaism of the masses of Jews who demanded His death. Obviously, very different.

FK: "Do you believe what the Bible says happened on the road to Damascus?"

I don't know what happened. In 1 Cor 9:1 +Paul says "Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" but in Acts 9:8 it says "And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

Acts 9:8 happens AFTER Paul's encounter with Christ, when he was blinded. It says earlier:

Acts 9:3 : 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: ... KJV

Now, this "could" be the reference in 1 Cor. 9:1 to "seeing" Jesus Christ. Or, more likely, IMO, Paul really did see Jesus in this sense:

1 Cor 15:5-8 : ... 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

10,923 posted on 02/21/2007 2:28:47 AM PST by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10745 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper
In this context, lemme try it this way. Was Adam a Jew? No, because Abraham was the first Jew

You are not thinking like a Jew. I suggest you research Jewish sources on what is a Jew. Abraham was the first among many "chosen ones" who established a "chosen nation" (by procreation). Until then, the God's "chosen" people were individuals who could not transmit their election to their offspring, but they were equally "chosen," and are therefore "Israel" in that sense.

Thus, being "Israel" is not necessarily genetic, cultural or racial. All the people who are 'the chosen' and graced by God are considered Israel.

When God gave Moses the Law, He established how one becomes part of Israel: either you are born of a Jewish mother or your a convert to Judaism. There is no 'grafting,' there is no different application, or abrogation of the Law or circumcision. Christ never spoke of 'grafting' anyone as that would be contrary to the Law, nor did he speak of the possibility of dispensing with dietary laws or circumcision being one in the heart and not external.

Just as the Bible does not use the word "predestination" before +Paul, the term 'the elect' refers to the chosen people by God in the Creation. It was understood to include such people as Adam and Noah, and all those born of Abraham.

Whether Jesus was preaching Judaism (as you said earlier) to him or not, He DID associate with him. Jesus was famous for taking supper and lodging with known sinners Jews could associate with Gentiles in their daily activities, by necessity. Jews were prohibited from fraternizing with them. There is a big difference.

Eating with sinners means nothing. The Jews were sinners too. The point is that Christ never, ever, preached or taught anything close to what +Paul did with regards to 'the elect,' or circumcision or dietary laws or even the Law.

Matt 24:14 : And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

That is, again, in perfect harmony with the Judaic idea of the meshiyah (messiah): that the whole world will know the God of Abraham. That doesn't mean the whole world will be Jewish. The Judaic messiah is a mortal ma, a king of Israel [who like all Jewish kings] is anointed by God) who will defeat the enemies of Israel (Jews), and establish peace on earth (the world to come), where everyone will know about the God of Abraham and Jacob the way everyone knew of Caesar.

Nothing mystical about it. Even the Apostles, in the very beginning of the Acts, ask Christ if He is going to "establish the Kingdom of Israel" at that point. Their mindset was still very much Jewish.

John 10:16 : I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd

There were other Semitic tribes, descendants of Abraham,, who were not following Christ. In fact, most if not practically all of Israel didn't! Judaic messiah is supposed to reunite all the tribes of Israel before he defeats his enemies.

Maybe I'm not sure what you mean by "Judaism". There was the Judaism of the OT righteous, and then there was the Judaism of the masses of Jews who demanded His death. Obviously, very different.

Judaism is whatever different 'denominations' or sects make it to be. What people believe or how they observe it is not 'official.' It's like saying there is the Christianity of the saints and of the non-saints.

1 Cor 15:5-8 :

And in Galatians he says that "God [sic] revealed Christ in (not to) him." As usual, once you start dissecting what +Paul says, it becomes obvious that he is going back and forth as the situation demanded.

10,932 posted on 02/21/2007 6:08:42 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10923 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson