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To: kosta50
Jo, sin is clearly defined by Geneiss as disobedience, the consequence of which is loss of Grace. Loss of Grace is a punishment

No doubt. Sin = loss of grace. Grace = God. Thus, sin is a lack of God, not a positively created thing.

Because of their refusal to repent, Adam and Eve were cursed. That curse changed their nature which became succeptible to decay and death

Man's nature was not "changed". Concupiscence is not part of our nature, although it is part of our experience. Our nature was wounded. Otherwise, if sin was part of our nature, then Christ did not become "man". If He became a nature that we are not, then the Fathers would say we were not saved...

Thus the essence of our absence of Grace is not guilt, macula, spot that has to be removed or washed away, but mortality. And we know that baptism does not remove our mortality.

Being baptized infuses the life of Christ within us. Was it there before? No? That is the description of original sin. Life before the Spirit enters into man upon Baptism, at least in the New Covenant. Does the Orthodox teach that man has the Spirit BEFORE baptism? Does the Orthodox teach that man is reborn upon baptism?

Regards

1,076 posted on 12/11/2006 9:51:56 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus; Kolokotronis
No doubt. Sin = loss of grace. Grace = God. Thus, sin is a lack of God, not a positively created thing

Well, you may be on your way to becoming Orthodox, Jo. :) The issue of uncreated Grace (Orthodox view) versus "created" Grace (Latin view) is what separates us a lot more than Immaculate Conception!

Besides, God doesn't withold His Grace; he showers His blessings on the righteous and the unrighteous equally. We either accept it or reject it.

Man's nature was not "changed". Concupiscence is not part of our nature, although it is part of our experience. Our nature was wounded.

Otherwise, if sin was part of our nature, then Christ did not become "man"

Christ's human nature is that of pre-fall. He was not conceived or born in iniquity. Ours is changed by sin (rejection of God).

if sin was part of our nature

Propensity to sin is part of our fallen-nature. Our tendency is not to be or do good.

Being baptized infuses the life of Christ within us

Being baptized brings us into the Church, where we may find life at the end of this journey. We only get a "ticket" not a guarantee.

Does the Orthodox teach that man has the Spirit BEFORE baptism?

Infants have nothing! They are the poorest in spirit. How could they have spirit when they don't even know who they are? You could be baptized as an infant and raised as a Muslim and you'd never know the Spirit. The life we get through Baptism is in the world to come, if we persevere, if we imitate Christ and regain the likeness of God.

1,082 posted on 12/11/2006 10:23:41 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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