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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr; wmfights; klossg; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; ..
What? Putting the "life" part aside for a moment, you don't think faith is a free gift?

It's a blessing, a gift if you will; you were given eyes and ears and a brain; do you call them 'free' as well? The absurdity of the construct 'free gift' couldn't be more obvious. Every true gift is free.

No, we owe all of any faith we have to God. We don't simply "have" it

So, now then you admit that our faith is not 'free?' It is attached to a condition that we owe to God? Then it's not a gift!

What God gave us freely is what we have; it is ours. When you give a gift, it is still yours?

Not unless it is freely given back to you! (here is where our free will comes in and why God gave us free will; if we can't give God back freely what He gave us freely, there is no true love)

The old saying says: if you let your bird free and he comes back to you, then he is yours. If he doesn't, he never was.

Faith is no different than our ears and our eyes. God gave them to us; they are ours to have and to use as we please. The same is with the faith: He inscribes it in our hearts; some use it; others don't.

Well, it's clear you can't be talking about spiritual freedom because the Bible is clear that it is a gift, unless one believes that salvation is earned

Grace is God's decision. It's different from the faith you carry in your heart and either come to God or reject Him. It's different from your eyes and ears which you have. Grace is a state: either you are graced or you are not. Either you are blessed or you are not. Either you are talented or you are not. Either you are alive or you are dead.

The "state" is your existence: you exist as a free soul, or you are a captive soul; you are awake or you are asleep. Your faith and your body parts are not a 'state.' They have a lot to do with you and your will. They are yours. They were given to you to keep and use. Your grace is independent of your will. It is not a gift. Your birth, your life, is independent of your will.

You wanna sell that to your wife? :) I would be injured if I tried. Even in my youthful poverty, it was by God's grace that I scraped enough cash together to buy her the most beautiful ring I could as a small token of the love I had for her

And, what did she buy you as a 'token' of her love? Did she also scrape enough of her youthful cash to buy you the most beautiful token of love she could? If she did, that's unusual. The 'token buying' (which is a major purchase and hardly a 'token,' yet another oxymoron we use so freely) is a one-way street, FK.

In many many societies in the world, it's the father of the bride who brings gifts to the groom (dowry). Somewhere along the line, the roles got reversed. :)

10,757 posted on 02/17/2007 6:26:32 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
FK: "No, we owe all of any faith we have to God. We don't simply "have" it."

So, now then you admit that our faith is not 'free?' It is attached to a condition that we owe to God? Then it's not a gift! What God gave us freely is what we have; it is ours.

No, faith is a free gift, that is, it is unconditional. An engagement ring is a conditional gift (i.e. not free) and carries with it the string of going through with the wedding. Your distinction between "having" something and being given something makes no sense to me.

When you give a gift, it is still yours? Not unless it is freely given back to you! (here is where our free will comes in and why God gave us free will; if we can't give God back freely what He gave us freely, there is no true love)

No, there are no takebacks with faith. God does not accept returns. Do you think God says "thank you very much for returning my free gift of faith"? No, that elevates man over God and is unbiblical. This has nothing to do with man's true love unless it is born of him. If man's power superseded God's will, then I would agree with you. But it does not. This does have to do with God's true love for us, though.

The old saying says: if you let your bird free and he comes back to you, then he is yours. If he doesn't, he never was.

ALL, 100% of the birds God sets free come back to Him. Birds are not more powerful than God either.

Faith is no different than our ears and our eyes. God gave them to us; they are ours to have and to use as we please. The same is with the faith: He inscribes it in our hearts; some use it; others don't.

This sounds like you mean all are born with all the faith they need to come to Christ. That can't be right, can it? Maybe this is the problem.

Your grace is independent of your will. It is not a gift.

What does the will have to do with whether something is a gift? Grace is a gift and so is faith. Neither is of ourselves.

And, what did she buy you as a 'token' of her love? Did she also scrape enough of her youthful cash to buy you the most beautiful token of love she could? If she did, that's unusual. The 'token buying' (which is a major purchase and hardly a 'token,' yet another oxymoron we use so freely) is a one-way street, FK.

It went with us in the traditional way, so yes it was a one-way street. That made it a gift, just like faith and grace.

In many many societies in the world, it's the father of the bride who brings gifts to the groom (dowry). Somewhere along the line, the roles got reversed. :)

That's why I intentionally decided to have one son and one daughter. :) No matter what the culture does, I'm in the same spot.

10,974 posted on 02/21/2007 5:49:51 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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