No offense, FK, but that sounds very naïve to me.
I don't see how it could refer to only demons. The analogy would fall apart because it is so clear that sheep refers to people
Well, then the Bible is not telling us the truth; then the eternal lake of fire was not created for the devil and his angels, but for some 'goats' in addition to that. It is clear from another part of the NT that Christ considered some who are among us not to have been created by the Father, but by the devil. (cf John 8:44)
To the extent we are both Christians, we ARE on the same page of music
I must disagree, FK. A couple of years ago I would have been more inclined to agree, but after having learned more about what encompasses "Christian" since then, that notion evaporated.
The Apostolics and the Protestants, as well as the LDS, and all sorts of other groups, all call on Christ, but our theologies, soteriologies, Christologies, etc. are like night and day. Even our "core concepts" that we share (in name at least), such as the Holy Trinity are not the same. When Kolo said that we worship a different God, he pretty much spoke my mind.
The Jews believed in Messiah
The messiah of Judaism is not a savior of man's souls. He is a mortal human being, a real king, who will bring peace and rule the world (this is where many anti-semitic groups get their conspiracy theories), this world. The Hebrew expression 'the world to come' does not refer to the heavenly world we think of. These terms are of course found in the OT but they had a different meaning before the Christians re-defined them.
The Apostles clearly expected such a man when they asked Christ if he was ready to establish the kingdom of Israel in the Book of Acts.
I really do not believe that the Apostles thought of Him as God (all Gospel verse notwithstanding) before the Resurrection, and that even after that +Thomas still had to put his fingers in His wounds in order to believe.
Of course that's not how it works, and I'm surprised that you still think Protestants "figure" that way at all.
Okay, then tell me if the Protestants do not believe that Christ paid for all our sins, past, present and future. Are we not just a pile of dung covered with a white sheet (Luther's words)? There is no cleansing required; just put on some clean clothes on our dirty bodies! Shove that dirt under the rug.
Do Protestants no believe that those who are saved are saved because God 'saved' them before they were even created? That nothing can change that? That everything they do is what God wills? Our works are not salvific; but then they are not damning either, correct? No matter what we do, we cannot be 'snatched,' correct?
Do the Protestants not believe that all your future sins are already 'covered?' So, why worry; be happy, right? Cozy, easy. Just sing 'hallelujah' and let god 'splash away' those 'perfect storms.' Easy, cozy, 'feel good,' that requires absolutely nothing of an individual's own doing. Nothing.
Was this God adjusting on the fly? :) God made a New Covenant because it was time for the Incarnation, planned from the beginning, and Christ was to bring it
Actually, yes! Just the way He 'repented' in the Old Testament for having made man and decided to drown everything alive — "on the fly." Otherwise we have to assume He created man wicked in order to drown Him.
Your theory doesn't match the scripture, FK. In Hebrews, the scribe specifically states that the Old Covenant was made 'imperfect' by the unbelieving Jews (cf Heb 8:9), and that God decided to start from scratch, erasing the iniquities of the Jews and staring with a clean slate, once again (cf Heb 8:12).
No offense, FK, but that sounds very naïve to me.
None taken. But why?
Well, then the Bible is not telling us the truth; then the eternal lake of fire was not created for the devil and his angels, but for some 'goats' in addition to that.
Hell was created to FIRST house satan and his demons. God, in His omniscience, knew that men would later inhabit it. Does scripture contradict this?
It is clear from another part of the NT that Christ considered some who are among us not to have been created by the Father, but by the devil. (cf John 8:44)
John 8:44 is obviously speaking of spiritual father, not in the sense of creation. See the beginning of John:
John 1:3 : Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
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When Kolo said that we worship a different God, he pretty much spoke my mind.
Well, it is a shame to hear that.
The messiah of Judaism is not a savior of man's souls.
This again depends on what one considers "Judaism". I believe that the OT righteous would have had it right, had they been around during the time of Jesus.
I really do not believe that the Apostles thought of Him as God (all Gospel verse notwithstanding) before the Resurrection, and that even after that +Thomas still had to put his fingers in His wounds in order to believe.
I would agree that not all of the Apostles were really with the program until after the resurrection. John was probably the earliest to be very close. But this was simply God's timing. It all comes from God anyway.
Matt 16:17 : 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
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Okay, then tell me if the Protestants do not believe that Christ paid for all our sins, past, present and future. Are we not just a pile of dung covered with a white sheet (Luther's words)? There is no cleansing required; just put on some clean clothes on our dirty bodies! Shove that dirt under the rug.
Yes, we believe that Christ paid for all our sins, past, present and future. He is very powerful like that. You are taking Luther's words out of context for your purpose. He was speaking of during physical life. After physical life, God will convert His elect to perfect righteousness in all glory. There is cleansing required and Luther knew it. From Luther's sermons:
34. Think of the honor and the glory Christ’s righteousness brings even to our bodies! How can this poor, sinful, miserable, filthy, polluted body become like unto that of the Son of God, the Lord of Glory? What are you—your powers and abilities, or those of all men, to effect this glorious thing? But Paul says human righteousness, merit, glory and power have nothing to do with it. They are mere filth and pollution, and condemned as well. Another force intervenes, the power of Christ the Lord, who is able to bring all things into subjection to himself. Now, if he has power to subject all things unto himself at will, he is also able to glorify the pollution and filth of this wretched body, even when it has become worms and dust. In his hands it is as clay in the hands of the potter, and from the polluted lump of clay he can make a vessel that shall be a beautiful, new, pure, glorious body, surpassing the sun in its brilliance and beauty.
35. Through baptism Christ has taken us into his hands, actually that he may exchange our sinful, condemned, perishable, physical lives for the new, imperishable righteousness and life he prepares for body and soul. Such is the power and the agency exalting us to marvelous glory—something no earthly righteousness of the Law could accomplish. The righteousness of the Law leaves our bodies to shame and destruction; it reaches not beyond physical existence. But the righteousness of Christ inspires with power, making evident that we worship not the body but the true and living God, who does not leave us to shame and destruction, but delivers from sin, death and condemnation, and exalts this perishable body to eternal honor and glory.
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Do Protestants not believe that those who are saved are saved because God 'saved' them before they were even created? That nothing can change that? That everything they do is what God wills? Our works are not salvific; but then they are not damning either, correct? No matter what we do, we cannot be 'snatched,' correct?
Reformers believe that God has elected those of His choosing before He created them. This can be seen as a "functional" salvation from the beginning, AND we also use the word "salvation" to refer to a singular event within time when the believer comes to accept Christ. Election is a "functional" salvation because as you say "nothing can change that".
Everything we do is part of God's plan, but God does not "will" everything we do in terms of sin. He does not "inject" actors with sin for the purpose of causing it. He simply leaves the actors alone, knowing the resulting sin will accomplish His purpose.
Our works are not salvific. Good works are a result of salvation, in every case. "Works", depending on the definition, can be, however, damning. The wages of sin is death.
Yes, no matter what we WILL do, we will not be snatched. I have to add the word "will" to your statement because that is the protection God promises us. On our own, we could theoretically lose our salvation. But, God promises that He will never leave us alone. For that reason, neither will the elect leap out of God's hand. God won't turn His back on us.
Do the Protestants not believe that all your future sins are already 'covered?' So, why worry; be happy, right? Cozy, easy.
Kosta, this has been answered a hundred times by multiple posters. At least tell us why you ignore the answer, instead of just disagreeing with it. God created us (in part) and commands us to do works. It's all over the Bible. We are to obey. Paul says "By no means" should we rest on our laurels. We Reformed Christians, with our changed hearts, WANT to do these things. We're not looking to get saved by doing them, we're looking to love, please, and glorify God by doing them. Which is the better motive? :) It's the God-given changed heart that makes this happen, it's not from us.
FK: "Was this God adjusting on the fly? :) God made a New Covenant because it was time for the Incarnation, planned from the beginning, and Christ was to bring it."
Actually, yes! Just the way He 'repented' in the Old Testament for having made man and decided to drown everything alive — "on the fly." Otherwise we have to assume He created man wicked in order to drown Him.
Actually, NO! :) You are saying that God changed His mind, implying fault in His original thinking. We say that God can and does change COURSE, but the new course was always part of the original perfect plan. That's a big difference. ........ Your last statement draws a false conclusion. You are equating ending with purpose. Among those who remain(ed) wicked, God created them to use for His own purposes in the furtherance of His plan. Some of those crucified Christ, some became Democrat Presidents, and some drowned, etc.
Your theory doesn't match the scripture, FK. In Hebrews, the scribe specifically states that the Old Covenant was made 'imperfect' by the unbelieving Jews (cf Heb 8:9), and that God decided to start from scratch, erasing the iniquities of the Jews and starting with a clean slate, once again (cf Heb 8:12).
God did not decide to start from scratch in the sense that He "realized" He had made a mistake. The Old Covenant was exactly what God wanted for the people it was intended for, pre-Christ Jews. That's what was good for them. With the arrival of Christ, a New Covenant became what was right and proper for Christians. God never changed His mind. Everything went according to the original plan.