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To: kosta50
My point is that the original Eve would not have died had she not sinned. Correct? If Mary was in every way as Eve was, except -- unlike Eve -- she did not sin, then she should not have died. Correct?

That is why I asked you. IF Mary experienced no effects of sin (childbirth pains), then she didn't die. You seem to contradict yourself by saying that Mary experienced no labor pains AND that she died.

Personally, I believe Mary experienced both death and labor pains - but not because she sinned. Sin has entered the world, and ALL men are subject to its after effects. Thus, Jesus worked and sweated, "toiling the earth", so to speak - and Mary probably also underwent labor pains...The world changed as a result of sin. But this doesn't mean that Mary HERSELF was punished. It merely means she existed in a sin-filled world.

Regards

1,047 posted on 12/11/2006 7:38:18 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: jo kus
You seem to contradict yourself by saying that Mary experienced no labor pains AND that she died

Jo, I am trying to think like a Catholic. :) The Orthodox do not teach that she didn't have labor pains because she was made "just like Eve."

Just as incarnation is a God's mystery, so was her Pregnancy and her Childbirth. In order to maintain her virginity, she would not have given Birth by ordinary means through an open birth canal. And if we can believe that God became Incarnate within her without a seed or carnal event, then it is equally valid to presume that the Birth was equally a mystery that did not violate her in any way.

Besides, if she gave birth in the conventional manner, her blood would have mixed with the Blood of Her Child(!), and a normal human birth would have spilled that precious Blood, desecrating it!

You are free to speculate, of course, but -- from an Orthodox point of view -- Mary's painless and mystical birth has nothing whatsoever to do with her being "second Eve."

If there is any contradiction in my statements, it was because I was making the argument from the Catholic point of view. :)

The Latin Church also teaches that her Birth was painless, which would, by necessity suggest that she was also immortal. Which also gives more ammunition to critics on the Protestant side that the Latins elevate Mary to a status comparable to a "goddess."

1,056 posted on 12/11/2006 8:04:06 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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