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To: annalex; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Quix; DungeonMaster
The truth is the church is known in exactly the same way men are known -- by its fruit.

If a church keeps its members cowered and fearful of their salvation, uncertain of Christ's perfect and finished sacrifice on the cross and impotent as far as proclaiming the Good News of the Gospel to all nations and races, then that church does not and will not bear good fruit.

The church is made up of all true believers and the word of God is God speaking to men, both ordained by God from before the foundation of the world. There's no need to segment the church from the word nor to order them in time. They have exsted from before time and they will exist until He returns again.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" -- John 1:1-3,14

THE SUFFICIENCY OF THE WRITTEN WORD
Answering the Modern Roman Catholic Apologists
by Dr. John F. MacArthur, Jr

"...It was inexcusable that tradition would be elevated to the level of Scripture in Judaism, because when God gave the law to Moses, it was in written form for a reason: to make it permanent and inviolable. The Lord made very plain that the truth He was revealing was not to be tampered with, augmented, or diminished in any way. His Word was the final authority in all matters: "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2). They were to observe His commandments assiduously, and neither supplement nor abrogate them by any other kind of "authority": "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:32)."

10,393 posted on 02/14/2007 4:46:04 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
We see further in Numbers 11 that although the leaders of the tribe, the 70, were endowed at Moses request with the HS, two others, Eldad and Medad (both meaning beloved) received Him also. Even if these 70 could be called a magisterium, the lesson is that HS rests on anyone He pleases.
10,396 posted on 02/14/2007 4:59:31 PM PST by 1000 silverlings
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; annalex; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Quix
"...It was inexcusable that tradition would be elevated to the level of Scripture in Judaism, because when God gave the law to Moses, it was in written form for a reason: to make it permanent and inviolable. The Lord made very plain that the truth He was revealing was not to be tampered with, augmented, or diminished in any way. His Word was the final authority in all matters: "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2). They were to observe His commandments assiduously, and neither supplement nor abrogate them by any other kind of "authority": "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:32)."

Excellent supplement to the verses in Revelation about not adding or subtracting a jot or a tittle.

Therefore I give you all doctrines about Mary being immaculately conceived, assumed into heaven, queen of heaven, ever virgin, co-mediator, co-redeemer, hearer of prayers, intercessor to the intercessor. These are a lot more than jots or tittles.

10,458 posted on 02/15/2007 5:01:49 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Acts 17:11 also known as sola scriptura.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Blogger; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Quix; ...
The church is made up of all true believers

The Church consists of those who are baptised and obey the teachings of the Church. The communities of faith of Protestant persuasion do not generally qualify:

Chapter 6. Unbelievers in the blood of Christ shall be condemned.

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans


10,595 posted on 02/15/2007 1:31:43 PM PST by annalex
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