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To: Blogger; kosta50; annalex

"We are not robots, but we did need His direct intervention or we would not have come. Nobody would."

What have I misunderstood? Of course you needed His direct intervention. The elect got that when they were "elected". I find it hard to say that the damned need His direct intervention, at least in a subjective sense. Who subjectively needs to be created so as to simply spend an eternity in torment? But I agree that from an objective standpoint, the damned didn't create themselves and certainly their damnation is on account of God in your system.

"With the belief system that you have laid out, I could come and say how could anyone call salvation unmerited? How could anyone boast only in God but not in themselves even MORE than God? And, if one ounce of our "righteousness" merited even the least bit of God's salvific favor, what kind of a brute beast is he for sending His own Son to die for us if we could "have the potential" of doing salvific works for ourselves."

How so? The elect in your system have absolutely nothing to do with their election. It is 100% of God before all ages. Under such circumstances of course they have nothing to boast about, but if they do boast, they are still the elect, they can no more do anything to become "unelect" than the could to become elect, unless being the elect they don't boast, right? And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity. So again, why read scripture? It has nothing to teach the elect because they need no teaching and teaching will profit the damned nothing.

"Kolo. I see very little difference substantively with a lot of the teaching on this thread and the teaching of Islam."

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing.

"In both systems, in the the end, it is dependent upon man meriting, through good works, God's favor -...."

Well that certainly isn't Orthodoxy, as I have explained many, many times.

"...and even in that dying breath, noone has assurance that God has saved them and that they are heading to heaven."

That is subjectively Orthodox. We are all sinners and hopefully trust in God's mercy.

"Rather, they hope that their goodness was good enough."

Change the word "goodness" to "similitude to Christ" and that's both subjectively and objectively Orthodox. And in Orthodoxy, living according to the scriptures does have meaning.

I might add that I do get a kick out of Western Christians presuming to lecture the Orthodox, or any Eastern Christian for that matter, about Mohammedanism. We have, shall we say, rather more experience with it up close and personal than you guys do.


10,043 posted on 02/10/2007 7:16:30 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
"We are not robots, but we did need His direct intervention or we would not have come. Nobody would." What have I misunderstood? A lot about the sovereignty and grace of God

Of course you needed His direct intervention. The elect got that when they were "elected". I find it hard to say that the damned need His direct intervention, at least in a subjective sense. Who subjectively needs to be created so as to simply spend an eternity in torment? But I agree that from an objective standpoint, the damned didn't create themselves and certainly their damnation is on account of God in your system.
Romans 9:18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"With the belief system that you have laid out, I could come and say how could anyone call salvation unmerited? How could anyone boast only in God but not in themselves even MORE than God? And, if one ounce of our "righteousness" merited even the least bit of God's salvific favor, what kind of a brute beast is he for sending His own Son to die for us if we could "have the potential" of doing salvific works for ourselves."

How so?


Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The elect in your system have absolutely nothing to do with their election. It is 100% of God before all ages.
Amen!

Under such circumstances of course they have nothing to boast about, but if they do boast, they are still the elect, they can no more do anything to become "unelect" than the could to become elect, unless being the elect they don't boast, right?
Sure. And the damned are still damned by God from all eternity.
No. They are damned by their own actions. God does not hold them back. They refuse to come.

So again, why read scripture? It has nothing to teach the elect because they need no teaching and teaching will profit the damned nothing.
Says you. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"In both systems, in the the end, it is dependent upon man meriting, through good works, God's favor -...."

Well that certainly isn't Orthodoxy, as I have explained many, many times.
Yes, but by statements like the following, We are all sinners and hopefully trust in God's mercy. you betray the notion. If we are all sinners and have no assurance of God's mercy when we die, then somehow, we have merited God's mercy. IOW, our works are salvific, hopefully, if God is pleased enough with them and if we have become Christ-like "enough" for his liking. This is unbiblical, Kolo.

"Rather, they hope that their goodness was good enough."

Change the word "goodness" to "similitude to Christ" and that's both subjectively and objectively Orthodox. And in Orthodoxy, living according to the scriptures does have meaning.

Either rendering, Kolo, it is not Scriptural. Our goodness, our similitude to Christ is not what saves for in this life we will ALWAYS be sinners. God can not be in the presence of Sin. He can not have fellowship with those He still counts as sinful. That's why He sent Jesus. Now, the sacrifice of Christ for our sins -- THAT was enough. And when it was done, He cried it is FINISHED! No more needed to be done to reconcile man with God. It was enough.

I might add that I do get a kick out of Western Christians presuming to lecture the Orthodox, or any Eastern Christian for that matter, about Mohammedanism. We have, shall we say, rather more experience with it up close and personal than you guys do.
Well, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience with Islamic militants. What year, month, day did you personally gain so much more experience with them than the rest of us on this thread? I have some friends who are smack dab in the middle of a closed country dealing with Islam every day. Is this the type experience that you personally have endured? Some of my ancestors were also killed during the crusades. Certainly they had quite the experience with Islam. Experience with Islam is certainly not a good thing. But it has been shared by many.
10,045 posted on 02/10/2007 8:00:17 PM PST by Blogger
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