'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[kosta50]

Thankfully, I missed out on that revisionism in my spiritual education

Revisionism? Are you denying that the Church in Israel was dying? Did not Christ predict that? Did our Lord ever call the faithful 'saints?' Are you denying that +Paul changed the laws given by God through Moses regarding the diet? Does your church have women preachers? Are they covered?

Are you denying that the theology and vocabulary of later works attributed to +Paul are different from his earlier authenticated Epistles? Was there anyone else in Jerusalem who advocated doing away with circumcision (which is equivalent to saying that new converts don't need to be baptized!)?

Is the world still flat?

[xzins]

I think you're just debating.

I think you realize that all scripture, including Paul, is inspired by God.

We don't get to mix and match our favorites.

[The_Reader_David]

Kosta, you're getting sloppy: priests cannot marry, nor can deacons, nor even subdeacons in the Slavic reading of the canons. Married men may be ordained to any of those orders (with the consent of their wives), but may not be consecrated bishop unless they are widowed or they and their wife agree to separate and embrace monastic professions (as was the case with Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow and his wife).

I'm quite certain you actually know all this, but you should be more precise when describing the discipline of the Church to those who do not.

[kosta50]

If you believe God is so weak that he can not preserve his teachings for his children, why not place your faith in an institution, created by man

That is a fair question, wmfights. The answer is I don't think that God is weak. And I do believe that He preserved His teachings. This does not elminate the fact that what we have of His word has nto been altered and tampered, or that various copies do not convey the same meaning, same detail, and as such do not lead to the same belief – but to many different interpretations, sects and even cults among those who call themselves Christians.

Likewise, there is no doubt that the Jews will tell you that your religion is false, because, as they say, man cannot become God (they neglect to ask if God can become man). We read the same Five Books of Moses differently from them, and we find in it what they dismiss as false.

Someone somewhere along the line is making things up as we go along. Probably all. Otherwise, we would all belong to the same Church.

[wmfights]

Do you not find it strange that two Apostles who did not know Christ personally (+Paul and +Luke) wrote more than those who actually walked with our Lord? I do!

I've read on these threads where it is believed that God exists outside of time. I believe you have agreed with this position. Why then would it require Jesus Christ more than an instant to impart into Paul what he wanted him to do?

[kosta50]

Kosta, you're getting sloppy: priests cannot marry, nor can deacons, nor even subdeacons in the Slavic reading of the canons. Married men may be ordained to any of those orders (with the consent of their wives), but may not be consecrated bishop unless they are widowed or they and their wife agree to separate and embrace monastic professions

You are absolutely right. I stand corrected. I should have seen this. One must be married before being ordained or appointed. The NT does not say that a priest may marry, but be a husband of one wife already.

[kosta50]

Blogger does not want to correspond with me any longer, so I am leaving him out.

Why then would it require Jesus Christ more than an instant to impart into Paul what he wanted him to do?

I will answer you using something my parish priest once said. The Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church contains parts that are not always sung because they don't apply. Thus, there are prayers for the dead which are included on specific occasions but are normally not included. There are prayers for the catechumens (people being brought into the Church who have not yet been baptize and/or chrismated). My priest always includes those prayers, yet I know we don't have any catechumens at this point.

I asked him "why do you include the prayers for the catechumens?" and he said "Because I know I believe. I don't know if anyone else does."

With God all things are possible, but everyone says that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't know that. Not all could be because the Spirit would not lead people apart.

[wmfights]

They construct straw houses in dry and windy weather.

As I'm catching up, initially I couldn't believe what I was reading about Scripture being made up doctrines to save Christianity. However, It makes sense if you want to place your faith in men. The only thing standing between the tyranny of despotic men acting "in the name of GOD" are the SCRIPTURES. The SCRIPTURES contain the truth that refutes tyrants.

[kosta50]

Surely the fact you put a + in front of the Holy Apostle Paul's name indicates you regard him as being lead by the Holy Spirit in his actions

I never rejected +Paul. Who am I to reject him?

...sober this-wordly analysis of the religious situation c. 70 AD suggests that the Church would have at worst died out...does not in any way negate the fact [sic] that the Holy Apostles, both the 12 and the 70, were vessels of the Holy Spirit, nor the Apostolic Council's preambulatory "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..."

Faith does not convince by "facts," nor by reason. Otherwise it would be verifyable rationalism.

What you call a fact does not impress the Jews or the Muslims. They subscribe to an entirely different set "facts."

[wmfights]

Can bishops (priests) marry? Didn't we discuss this somewhere back on this thread? I know, you guys will say this isn't theology but Church discipline. A change is a change.

I'm not sure how much of this in the EOC, but these are all inventions post canon:

Purgatory,the Mass, transubstantiation, indulgences, the treasury of merit, penance, the rosary, prayers to Mary, holy water, the papacy.

[kawaii]

I'm not sure why you bother Kosta. I mean you're defending your stance on Paul with folks many of whom already reject 2 of his teachings...

[wmfights]

Not all christians are christians, not all Jews are Jews, not all muslims are muslims, and there are even some non believers that believe..

The only way to salvation is by the Son

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Jesus proved he was who he said he was and that what he said was true. There is no other path to salvation except through Jesus. It doesn't matter how loving or good you are, we have all sinned and fallen short.

[kosta50]

I'm not sure how much of this in the EOC, but these are all inventions post canon: Purgatory,the Mass, transubstantiation, indulgences, the treasury of merit, penance, the rosary, prayers to Mary, holy water, the papacy

Take out the purgatory (the EOC teaches an intermediate state but is somewhat different from the Latin purgatory although convergence of these does not seem impossible if the terminology if refined), transubstantiation (too 'technical,' but the belief that the Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into the Precious Body and Blood of Christ is the same), indulgences, and treasury of merit.

Orthodox penance is somewhat different from the Catholic one. We don't do 10 "Hail Marys..." Orthodox penence is a period of time the priest feels is needed for metanoia (change of mind), repentance.

[wmfights]

[ If you can't defend history, deny history. FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS... ]

It looks like I have to go back and try reading this book again. I started, but stopped after the first couple chapters.

[kosta50]

I'm not sure why you bother Kosta. I mean you're defending your stance on Paul with folks many of whom already reject 2 of his teachings...

I reply to their replies. That's all. What they believe is their belief. My pay is the same. :)

[wmfights]

I do know that Christ never advocated changing the Law or tossing out the Law. Nor did He teach that restricted foods should not be restricted. Nor did He authorize his disciples to change what apparently God set (if we believe that the OT is inspired), for the dietary restrictions and the Law came from God.

Didn't everything change after the crucifixion?

Because of the sacrifice of Jesus we are able to be reconciled with GOD. Thus a New Covenant was created.

[The_Reader_David]

I stand by the use of the word 'fact' as to my, no, not my, the Church's, description of the Holy Apostles.

The Holy Apostle Paul describes faith as 'evidence' at one point. We sing at the end of every Liturgy, "we have found the True Faith." Holy Orthodoxy is objectively true, and its doctrines are facts, even if the only evidence for some of them is faith.

[wmfights]

The answer is I don't think that God is weak. And I do believe that He preserved His teachings. This does not elminate the fact that what we have of His word has nto been altered and tampered,...

This is why Christians find discussions about translation and accuracy so interesting and valuable.

I believe that the truth wins out. God loves us so much he sent his son to die for us, a bunch of worthless sinners.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank all of your for your engaging posts! Hope y’all don’t mind but, because there were so many and I’m so late to reply, the responses are consolidated below:

Dr. Eckleburg 6248: To deny that the Scriptures contain all we need to know of God is to deny the work of the Holy Spirit.

I like to explain it this way: God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways as listed below in order. Indeed, my Spiritual leading agrees with the Jewish understanding, that revealing Himself is the reason there was a beginning at all.

1. Through His only begotten son, Jesus. The more we know Him, the more we know the Father because He is the express image of the Father. (Hebrews 1:3)

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. – John 14:7

2. Though the indwelling Spirit Who leads us to Truth and reveals Christ to us (John 15-17, Romans 8 esp 9, I Cor 2 esp 11-12):

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. – John 14:26

3. Though the Scriptures which I aver ought not be filtered by mortal men. (Matt 22:29)

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deu 4:2

4. Through His Creation (both spiritual and physical) and we will be held accountable for noticing it (Romans 1:20).

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

Again I aver that it is possible for a person to know the Scriptures like the back of his hand but not understand them.

Wmfights 6250: I would add that all doctrine, dogma, beliefs must be consistent with what is written in Scripture.

Indeed. The Berean test is one of several I use in evaluating theological commentary. Others include the test of the Spirit in 1 John 4 and the good tree/good fruit test in Matthew 7. All of the fruits of the Spirit must be in evidence in the speaker and his comments: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. (Gal 5:22-23 paraphrased)

In sum, if the speaker does not openly testify that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, if even one of the fruits of the Spirit is missing in His life or testimony, or if anything he says does not comport with Scripture – I ignore him altogether.

annalex 6260We can argue if baptism itself or the intention of the Church to baptize is efficacious, but my point is not that the faithful never receive the Holy Ghost, but rather that when they do, it comes from the Apostles, St. Peter is this instance, and therefore from the Church.

Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking (Acts 10:44-47)

annalex 6278 Why are keys to the Heavenly Kingdom and power to bind and loose not dispositive? The fact the Christ holds the same key at the Day of Judgement does no diminish the clear scripture of Matthew 16.

Only Jesus sits on the Great White Throne. Only He disposes, i.e. the second death:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. – Rev 20:11-15 Again, I aver that it is perilous for a man to stand between Jesus and His sheep. If he declares that no man can come to Jesus except through Him, he interjects something Jesus did not say here:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14:6

Likewise, if he declares that he is the judge over other Christians, then he interjects something Jesus did not say here:

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. – John 5:21-23

Also, if he declares that he is the one who dispatches the Holy Spirit to whomever he wills, he claims God’s authority:

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

Thus I again aver that it is a perilous thing indeed for a man to stand between Jesus and His sheep. Those to whom Jesus has delegated authority in His church should tremble in fear and never be proud:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. – Matt 18:6

This I believe is the phenomenon which troubles hosepipe here:

hosepipe 6329: My personal experience with (good, my word) Roman Catholics is they trust in and even have faith in the Roman Catholic Church, rather than Christ himself.. Not all of them, be advised, but almost all of them.. Bad(my word) Roman Catholics don't even go that far..

The risk is that some may not be able to see the forest for the tree, in the case the Church. IOW, a believer must be humbled before God can use him, e.g. Moses was the most humble man on earth. Both Peter and Paul were humbled. Paul had a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble. And in the same passage where Jesus blessed Peter, he also said to him “get thee behind me Satan” because he did not put the will of God first.

If one would be used of God he must not become the focus of attention. So again I say, it is a perilous thing for a man to stand between Jesus and His sheep.

hosepipe 6291: Taking apart the greek words for love(phileo and agapeo) in John 21;15-17 would also be an eye opener to some others.. What Jesus was actually saying to Peter.. I know of few that even know what Jesus was actually instructing Peter.. The meaning is absolutely occluded in English.. because English has only one word for love..The drama of these verses is pregnant with meaning, missed by everybody I personally know.

I would love to see a thread on agapeo, phileo and eros. There is much to be shared on each of them. As you say, the translation to English to “love” is inadequate.

Kosta50 6292: I merely observed that Heb 10 speaks of 'saints" in the same way Heb 8 speaks of the House of Israel. being orthodox, a saint means something else. You being former catholic should know that.

Thank you for your encouragements and for sharing your testimony with us!

I do wish to clear up one point though – I was never a Roman Catholic. However, my family is evenly split between Catholic and non-Catholic so I do have some insights on the differences.

Kosta50 6305: A-G, hagios means "most holy." It appears in the latter part of Acts for the first time in the NT applied to believers (in the Gospels it is applied to the Holy Ghost/Spirit, i.e. that which is divine).

It is also used in Matthew 27:52 in reference to believers who were asleep and arose. I would not expect the term “saint” to be used to apply to living mortal beings, until the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost in Acts.

Also I reject your dismissal of Paul. Paul was specially chosen, his work authenticated by Peter and the others. More importantly to me, his words have been authenticated by the indwelling Spirit as His own and not the mere musings of a mortal being.

Those who do not have the indwelling Spirit should at the very least listen to Gamaliel:

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. – Acts 5:38-39

More on the revelations of God:

annalex 6307: Indeed, the confession that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is from Christ. So is the Church who told you that.

Not at all. That is the very point of Matthew 16 (emphasis mine):

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. - Matt 16:15-17

All Christians share this one direct Spiritual revelation, that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. (I John 4) That knowledge cannot be obtained by reason or sensory perception - only as a direct revelation. Peter was the first to receive it.

hosepipe 6310: The paraclete(Holy Spirit) is an ever present personality available for help.. And is no doubt looking over your shoulder as we speak..

Getting to know the Holy Spirit, personally, and through Him, Jesus, personally – is an unspeakable joy, available to all Christians! More importantly, we can do nothing without Him:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5

As Quix paraphrases John 3, Romans 8 (“Abba, Father”) ….

Quix 6317: So, Christ came and died, shedding His Blood horribly so that we might have DIRECT UNFETTERED, UNHINDERED ACCESS TO DADDY. And Christ then sent Holy Spirit to continue to facilitate WITHIN all such believers that DIRECT ACCESS WITH DADDY.

I would add that we are factually dead to this world and are alive in Him:

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Col 3:3

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. – Matt 16:24-25

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

To continue…

kosta50 6387: Everyone, or so it seems, boasts of some divinity working inside of them. I feel that sometimes, but I have no clue what it is. I feel that somehow I am gently ushered back into repentance and self-denial, but like a person in a dream I "know" who I am thinking of but really don't have a label or a picture that comes with it.

We are all made in the image of God. God breathed (neshama) into Adam’s nostrils and he became a living soul. So it is not surprising that men sense that they do not belong here, in this physical realm.

But it is my testimony that when one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit there can be no case of “mistaken identity” for He works a miracle in them. They are not the persons they once were – people around them notice it and comment on it. They don’t see things the same way anymore. The fruits of the Spirit flow from their lives (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control.) And the Scriptures are no longer simply text on paper but rather come alive within. And through all of this, they get to know Jesus personally and the Spirit, personally – and because Jesus is the express image of the Father, Him too, personally. As persons – not concepts.

[wmfights]

With God all things are possible, but everyone says that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I don't know that. Not all could be because the Spirit would not lead people apart.

God does not think like we do. Why suppose that everyone must submit to the domination of one sect?