'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[Kolokotronis]

A reminder of what day this is (Continuing Orthodox Education)!

Apolytikion in the First Tone

Lord, when You were baptized in the Jordan, the veneration of the Trinity was revealed. For the voice of the Father gave witness to You, calling You Beloved, and the Spirit, in the guise of a dove, confirmed the certainty of His words. Glory to You, Christ our God, who appeared and enlightened the world.

Kontakion in the Fourth Tone

You appeared to the world today, and Your light, O Lord, has left its mark upon us. With fuller understanding we sing to You: "You came, You were made manifest, the unapproachable light."

Synaxarion:

About the beginning of our Lord's thirtieth year, John the Forerunner, who was some six months older than Our Saviour according to the flesh, and had lived in the wilderness since his childhood, received a command from God and came into the parts of the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. Then our Saviour also came from Galilee to the Jordan, and sought and received baptism though He was the Master and John was but a servant. Whereupon, there came to pass those marvellous deeds, great and beyond nature: the Heavens were opened, the Spirit descended in the form of a dove upon Him that was being baptized and the voice was heard from the Heavens hearing witness that this was the beloved Son of God, now baptized as a man (Matt. 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:1-22). From these events the Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the great mystery of the Trinity were demonstrated. It is also from this that the present feast is called "Theophany," that is, the divine manifestation, God's appearance among men. On this venerable day the sacred mystery of Christian baptism was inaugurated; henceforth also began the saving preaching of the Kingdom of the Heavens.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI!

[bornacatholic]

LOL..at least they have good pizza and some excellent local microbrews.

[bornacatholic]

Beautiful post, brother.

Now, when He opened the Scroll in Capernaum and gave His personal exegesis of Holy Writ, I had no problem with that :)

[Mad Dawg]

I'm sorry. I think this is remarkable. I consider your post a personal attack. I do not view this as an "us against them" kind of conversation. I will not answer further.

[Kolokotronis]

Well, some people have no liturgical life and it really is time they get exposed to some! :)

[bornacatholic]

I am sorry you feel that way. I was honest without making it a personal attack. I described your ACTIONS.

[bornacatholic]

In general, I find that if I want somebody to listen to me and to think about what I say, it's probably most likely to happen if I don't start out by calling him a vicious fool...

*Of course I neither called anyone in here a "vicious fool" nor did I ping the religion moderator when you said I did..

Is this your idea of fair play?

[wmfights]

You know enough to misinterpret him. Please do not make the mistake of glossing over the sins of your church which helped produce a Luther.

FWIW, there have always been sects that were in opposition to the RCC and EOC. It seems the most common reasons were a lack of discipline, a lack of reliance on Scripture, the type of church government, the lack of separation of church and state, and practices such as infant baptism. It is another obfuscation of truth to present the idea that Christian believers were united in one sect prior to the EO split and than the Reformation.

[HarleyD]

"Taste and See..." I quoted the Psalm, HD

Ah....I see...

If you were sitting here I'd just offer you another piece of baklava and leave it at that! :)

I love baklava. I think we would enjoy each other company (and the baklava) immensely.

[annalex]

Because our sanctification is an already but not yet process. Positionally, we are justified, sanctified, and glorified already.

Here is the rub: if man is cooperating with grace in his salvation, then this "already but not yet" thing -- that we plainly observe in people, because of course they can have solid faith yet fall to sin -- is not a contradiction. That is, as you know the teaching of the Church, East and West. Man is on a journey toward his final justification, he has been saved by the sacrifice of Christ, he is being saved by His grace with which he cooperates imperfectly, and he hopes to be saved at particular judgement, according to his works, when he dies. Each time salvation is mentioned in the New Testament it is in either of these three tenses: past perfect, progressive, or future perfect.

But then to tell this man of a journey "you are either saved or condemned already and there is nothing you can do about this election or reprobation" is a horrible, satanic thing (see my 4053). It leads him to either presumption or despair, and either one is a mortal sin in itself. Naturally, such advice is nowhere in the Bible. St. Paul finishes every letter of his with admonitions to good works. When Luther wrote his "pecca foprtiter", he was not even remotely echoing anything scriptural. I trust that you understand that from the Catholic or Orthodox perspective that is a horrific statement to make.

As you explained, Luther was able to write it without the Protestant world condemning him because of that peculiar theology that denies free will. Man then becomes a robot that is either destined to go to hell or heaven without any contribution of will from the robot itself. Then the question becomes, why would God make such an imperfect work? Why not grant the elect sinless lives from the altar cal forward? And why the admonitions to good works all over the scripture?

What Luther wrote is indeed what Protestant soteriology teaches. You showed us why. One should not condemn Luther personally for his "pecca fortiter" advice, it was an accurate exposition of his soteriology. But one should, boldly, condemn the Protestant soteriology as a whole at the evidence of that Luther's statement.

[bornacatholic]

One should not condemn Luther personally for his "pecca fortiter" advice, it was an accurate exposition of his soteriology.

* I do :)

His was a material and formal heresy and it, repeatedly, had been explained to him how it was heretical.

At the end of their debate, Eck calmly noted Luther was opposing the Ecumenical Councils, in addition to Scripture, and so Luther was to Eck as a publican.

You'll get from me a Gregorian Chanted AMEN for most of your post but not a single note of

Sympathy for the devil

for the part of your post I quoted...:)

[annalex]

the mistake of glossing over the sins of your church

Let me address that, since it should have been addressed to a Catholic.

Much of the criticism of the Latin Church circa 1500 is valid. Much is a misunderstanging, or an exagerration, or outright calumny. However, I would postulate that at least the 95 theses were indeed valid criticism, and some of the later maneuvers of the Chruch with respect to Luther were underhanded or at least seemed to him underhanded, as there was a period when he was debating in good faith with St. Cajetan.

If the Reformers split over the conduct of Rome at that time, their position would have been analogous to the position of the Orthodox: a schism over authority, minor theological disagreements as the two Churches developed independently from the point of the schism onward, unity of the fundamental faith. However, they did not do that. They instead invented a set of theologies sharply dissonant with the doctrines of the historical Church of Christ. Rather than moving, like the Orthodox, largely in a parallel direction and retaining the deposit of faith elucidated by the Church of the Seven Concils, you moved centrifugally and continue to do so. Give you another couple centuries and you will be farther from Christ than Mohammed. That is a problem much larger than the Roman baroque opulence and the sale of indulgences.

[P-Marlowe]

I know my wife thinks I can avoid adultery and murder :)

Have you EVER looked upon a woman with lust or have you ever had hate in your heart for another?

[annalex]

almost exclusively +Paul they quote

And then very little of him. I had a dispute once over Romans 10 and its supposed proclamation of Sola Fide heresy. All I had to do is make them read the letter to the end.

[annalex]

[continuing Lutherans] joined Luther's movement after the fact, so that makes them apostates

Inasmuch as they adhere to Luther's philosophies of the four Solas, they are apostates, regardless of the provenance of their episcopacies. Apostolic succession requires two things: valid Holy Orders and confession of faith of the apostles. The former may be intact here and there, the latter is grossly lacking all across the board.

The Anglican succession suffered a similar fate later: at some point, the confession deviated from the deposit of faith so sharply that Leo XIII pronounced it breached.

[annalex]

there have always been sects that were in opposition to the RCC and EOC. It seems the most common reasons were a lack of discipline, a lack of reliance on Scripture, the type of church government, the lack of separation of church and state, and practices such as infant baptism

We know of the christological or mariological heresies; they are amply documented. We know of donatism. How come we know nothing of these other heresies, that look suspiciously as 16c inventions? What is your source?

[annalex]

His was a material and formal heresy and it, repeatedly, had been explained to him how it was heretical.

I know it was. I just got done calling it satanic and protomahomedan. My point was that no matter how gross the heresy, an accurate exposition of the heretical belief in itself is not a personal fault.

[bornacatholic]

Brigitte Bardot, circa 1958, yes. Hilary at any age, no.

But, I was young back in the day.

Reception of Sanctifying Grace, my participation in the Divine Nature taught in 2 Peter, in the Sacramental System established by Jesus has continually diminished the number of times that has occured...

Oh, and Bardot got old and went animal rights nutz...:)

[bornacatholic]

ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID

TALK ABOUT AN APHORIST....

[bornacatholic]

sure it is.

Any act contrary to the will of God - and Luther's "teaching" certainly was that - is a sin.

He was bringing another Gospel to others