Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
He is our creator. Are you making him sovereign in one case and not in the other?
One is picked the other not.
Both deserve damnation, one gets a pass.
What do you think is the difference between them? Is it truly a lottery in your view?
I notice that predestination is almost entirely a Romans and OT sola scriptura. Have you noticed this too?
A lottery is based on chance. This is God's sovereign will. Both deserve Hell. Neither deserves Heaven. Grace is given to one, justice to the other.
based on what criteria?
Not really. God's sovereign choices are all over Scripture.
In the OT, God chose Israel. He chose David over His brothers. He chose Jeremiah from his mother's womb. He chose Moses. In the New Testament, He chooses Mary. He chooses each disciple. They aren't pursuing Him, He chooses them. Why not others? Because it wasn't His will. Predestination is found in Romans, Ephesians, Revelation, 1 Corinthians, 2 Timothy etc.,
Romans deals a lot with it because Romans is basically one big theology book. The other books are dealing with specific issues the churches were facing.
2 Timothy 1:9
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Maybe I can try to figure out where your problem with free will comes in..
Do you have a problem with the possibility that someone could be given a little bit of grace and not persevere? That they may have a choice and not take it?
It is, of course, true that no one can earn the salvation on his own power, but does so with Christ "working in him".
LOL. Only to someone who hasn't read the rest of the Bible.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" -- Ephesians 1:4-11"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." -- John 15:16
"Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple." -- Psalms 65:4
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" -- 1 Peter 2:9
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:44
"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." -- John 5:21
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
Surely this important principle is itself written down somewhere?
I do not object to quoting scripture: I do so often. But quoting scripture that does not say what the person quoting is arguing is at times comical.
These threads have shown me just how far the Roman Catholic church is from the Scriptural understanding of Christ's atonement.
His righteousness is what saves us; not our own. His obedience is what earns God's mercy; not our own. His suffering the punishment due our sins is what acquits us; not our own. His blood cleanses us, not our own.
And He does this perfectly and irrevocably because it is by the will of God.
And these prove to you that you have no free will and are a predestined robot of a capricious God.
Sola Insanity, IMHO.
Surely.
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
It's been noted all you do is sling invectives while offering very little Scripture.
My advice would be to return to the Bible and read it.
To you, yes it seems so.
For some reason your personality brings out the absolute worst in me on these threads.
So, I'm gonna stop responding to you at all, and ask your courtesy to do the same.
I think all concerned will be better off for it.
thank you.
Saving grace, yes. Grace, no. Even the lost experience the grace of God. They live in a beautiful world. They usually have at least some measure of blessings though they are disposed against God. The thing is, no matter what, left to our own we will never choose God.
I only say that there is no free will because man is bound by sin. The chains of sin isn't a state of freedom. Yet, from the standpoint of being free to choose God, God does not withhold that choice from them. He isn't saying NO, you can't come. Though being God, he knows that nobody would come.
Through Christ, we were able to taste true freedom for the darkness which sin kept us in (which we willingly embraced) was lifted and we were made alive to God's truth.
I showed you a very clear scripture that says otherwise. Here is another:
[I, Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (Col 1:24)
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that "scripture alone contains all that God has revealed for the salvation of man and fellowship with Him"? Where?
Saving grace, yes. Grace, no..
But.. by definition, I'm guessing, "saving grace" is grace that saves, so by definition saving grace for un unsaved is impossible. So, it's kinda pointless to distinguish here.
Would you agree that sufficient grace is given but not all respond to it.
I'm guesssing not, but I have to give it a shot.
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