Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
It is a first, to read Galatians 3:28 as a praise of ignorance.
"big boy?"
Yeah...and I just lost 26 pounds! But you know, back in my "Greek God" days, the girls did like to sing out "Hey big boy!" I liked that!
"It is a first, to read Galatians 3:28 as a praise of ignorance."
Doubtless one more Protestant scriptural innovation! :)
Kosta,
Byzantine/Majority Text (2000) and Textus Receptus (1550/1894) have "ton prototokon". Tischendorf 8th Ed. and Westcott/Hort, UBS4 variants do not.
Of course it does; the issue is not the word or even whether it was a later insertion. Christ was a firstborn as a Jewish legal term, regardless of other siblings. This is another englishism you introduce, when you imply that since Christ was a firstborn, there have to be a "secondborn".
When an American mother introduces her children she might say: "This is Josh, my first...", and even if her speech were interrupted at that point by a malfunctioninig coffee maker, we'd know that she gave birth to more than one child. But that is because nothing legal attaches to being the elder brother in America. To a Jew that would mean an obligation to God and transfer of title. When Matthew mentions "firstborn" it is to underscore that in His earthly genealogy Christ is in the line of King David. Little would he know that 2,000 years later people not familiar with the Jewish law or the working of dynasties would read stuff into it.
-A8
You look at the scriptures?
"When an American mother introduces her children she might say: "This is Josh, my first...", and even if her speech were interrupted at that point by a malfunctioninig coffee maker, we'd know that she gave birth to more than one child."
I like to introduce my oldest, in the presence od my wife and with a perfectly straight face, "This is John, my oldest from my first marriage" 'Course I've only been married once. :)
I don't recall that Paul uses the word for priest in that scripture....
That Thayre that you posted is too cryptic to point either way. If you think it commands "eos ou" being translated as "until" but not "till", why do KJV and Young's literal both have it "till"?
Here is Liddell and Scott on "eos" (see I.6 at link). It says,
6. with Advbs. of Time and Place, he. hote till the time when, c. ind., v.l. for este in X.Cyr.5.1.25; he. hou, f.l. for es hou, Hdt.2.143: freq. in later Gr., Gem.l.c., Ev.Matt.1.25, etc.; he. hotou ib.5.25, etc.; he. pote; how long? ib.17.17, Ev.Jo.10.24; he. tote LXX Ne.2.16 ; he. opse till late, [p. 752] f.l.for es opse, Th.3.108; he. arti 1 Ep.Jo.2.9 ; he. hôde as far as this place, Ev.Luc.23.5.
The emphasis is mine, follow to link for further links. It covers your case, eos followed by adverb ("ou"). It does not fall under the next case in LSJ, indicating "how long?". There is no mentioning of the condition necessarily stopping after the time indicated.
My bet is, if you look up the usage of "eos" and compare it to "eos ou", you will discover that "ou" or "an" simply control the following verb, and no proposition is needed when "eos" controls a noun. Had St. Matthew said "till the birth" rather than "till she gave birth", there would be no "ou". It does not introduce any semantics.
Thank you Alex.
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
The connection between Mary are brothers here is very strong. It is evidence that indicates a high probability that these are in fact Jesus' bros and Mary's sons here. This can not be dismisssed, and stands in the contradiction to the pertual virginity claim. This passage makes the claim highly doubtful.
John 7:3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do.
"And it would seem strange that Jude would call himself a brother of James, who supposedly is a blood brother of Jesus according to you,"
I madeno such claim. The above passages absolutely do not contain bros, as in good buddies. The above passages came before that and it's more probable that the bros are bros, not cousins.
Correct, he actually recommended it for everyone.
I beleive Quester pointed to this verse as well.
Look, this has nothing to do with perpetual virginity of Mary because all Jesus does in this passage is to call every Christian his brother. In fact, this is another reason why all the references to "brethren of Our Lord" are problematic.
I did not find it cryptic. Long. Hard to sort through. But once you found your verse, it was pretty clear.
Why did KJV and Young's literal say 'till? I don't know. Neither one change the meaning.
Lots of context to see what the verse(s) mean(s). It is my strong belief (having not even consulted a commentary or such to get someone else's opinion), having studied the text(s) in Greek and English that the fact that Mary and Joseph had a normal relationship including procreation with one another is self-evident. You disagree. Let the reader decide if there is a case there.
Whether it is an insertion isn't even the point - since Luke 2:7 also includes the phrase.
It isn't an Englishism when I looked it up in the lexicon. What is a prototype? It is the first in a line of items.
Prototokos came from two Greek Roots.
Protos- which has these meanings:
1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
b) chief
c) principal
3) first, at the first
And Tikto meaning:
1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
a) of a woman giving birth
b) of the earth bringing forth its fruits
c) metaph. to bear, bring forth
So Mary gave birth to either her:first in time or place,
in any succession of things or persons, highest ranked, her chief, principal, or most influential Son. This is Jesus in relation to Mary.
Are you including the Peshitta Syriac? IT is found there as well.
Not a praise. Just a call to recognize that all Christians are equal in Jesus' eyes so just because one is a Greek Speaker doesn't mean the debate ends when the Greek Speaks.
King James was by all intents a Catholic in Anglican clothes. He was HIGHLY SYMPATHETIC to Catholicism. His mother was killed over it. Politically, he had to be Protestant. But in his heart, he was Catholic - as were some of his children. Of course, one needed jump on the Protestants too hard for making the political situation so strict. Bloody Mary wasn't exactly the nicest person to live through - and while Elizabeth killed as many people in her reign as Mary did - Elizabeth's reign was far longer so on average hers was much less bloody.
Anyway, back to Mickey Mouse Translations. My least favorite is the NIV. It's only redeeming value is that it is very readable and makes Paul's letter seem like actual letters. But as a translation, it is not very good.
KJV is my favorite. I grew up on it. It hasn't always used the best interpretation of certain words; but I haven't seen it resort to making up meanings. Any "mistakes" referred to before were likely printing errors or word order or something to the effect of the sinful Bible - talk about an oops.
The KJV Committee didn't avoid Priest at all. They just didn't translate presbuteros as priest. Again, another quite legitimate translation. I do not see in my lexicons where presbuteros ever means priest. Just don't. I looked it up after you mentioned it.
But, there are plenty of times where priests are referred to in the KJV in both testaments. We are even called priests. So, I don't really see an concerted effort to ban mentioning priests - especially when I can't find presbuteros meaning priest at all. Maybe another lexicon has priest as a possible meaning. Mine doesn't.
1 Timothy 4 isn't really the function of a priest. Also the word was presbuterion. Per Strongs: Presbuterion Neuter of a presumed derivative of presbuteros; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian "presbytery."
The NT Greek Lexicon says it is body of elders, presbytery, senate, council
of the Jewish elders
of the elders of any body (assembly) of Christians and that it is presumed to derive from presbuteros which means:
elder, of age,
the elder of two people
advanced in life, an elder, a senior
forefathers
a term of rank or office
among the Jews
members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Do you have any lexicons that actually translate it priest. I've been looking for them. I do not see any .
I just lost 26 pounds too! Doing Weight Watchers.
As to the Galatians reference - you know well what I was hitting at.
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