Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Alex actually made it up — it was a joke, and I fell for it! :-(
To God be the glory!
The Torah, indeed the Tanakh, is no small matter to God. As Jesus said, not a jot or tittle will pass from the law and the prophets until it is all fulfilled (Matt 5:18, Romans 3:1-2).
Obviously, not every Jew was blind or deaf to spiritual Truth. Indeed, God chose and revealed much to Abraham, Moses, David and so on - and they were used mightily by Him.
Moreover the Hebrew word concepts I’ve mentioned - nephesh, ruach, neshama, ruach Elohim - are rooted in Scripture.
To whatever extent they were raised in the Talmud or in the oral traditions is beside the point.
These are the concepts – not trichotomy – which Paul explicates in the New Testament in Romans 8. The body is not even the issue, the carnal nature – the nephesh is.
So much for the sola scriptura then. :) All kidding aside, the Jews will tell you that they know the power of God more than any other people on earth.
I agree. But why drag kabbalistic and rabbinical beliefs tainted with neo-Platonic and Persian concepts into Christianity? Again, pre-existence of the souls entered Judaism through Babylon and hellenistic influences, and not through the Torah, as for the Tanakh I am not sure (some parts were written after the Babylonian captivity).
Obviously many were. What's your point?
They were interpreted as trichotomy by some, even to this day.
These are all Calvinist theories, in which I have no interest. I do what Christ and His apostles tell us. You are curious what is it, I'll tell you, but it looks like you can read NewAdvent for yourself. That is a good start.
As so often happens, New Advent contradicts Scripture and Jesus Christ Himself...
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Salvation - It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will. Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.(New Advent)
25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins. 26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.(Mark 11)
I respect your statement. And, if you allow for "Agree or disagree", then I would expect you to show the exact same respect for both Luther and Calvin.
What I often have from the Protestants is reading something very precisely stated and elaborated in context, and leaping to a conclusion they like.
That accusation works both ways. To us, "in context" means with other (inspired) scripture, but to Roman Catholics, it means with man-created (uninspired) Traditions.
For example, they will find a passage that praises the scripture and declare that it proves sola Scriptura, or, like here, a passage that says that faith is necessary for salvation and conclude that it is also sufficient.
Everything that you say here is a simple matter of age-old disputed interpretation. We "KNOW" that Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are clearly taught in the scriptures, and one by-product is that God's power and sovereignty are increased in the human perception. Equally, you "KNOW" that Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are fantasies invented by satan's unwitting accomplices, 500 years ago. That belief continues to maintain the idea of the high level of man's sovereignty and power. Therefore, the power and glory of man is increased in the human perception. There are clearly two different agendas.
But we Orthodox are no less to blame for having dropped our catholic name, save at Baptism or when reciting the Creed or the Prayer for the Catechumens.
I don't think most people even notice it. And in Slavonic churches, the Greek word is translated into соборност (sobornost), so that the word "catholic" is never actually mentioned unless it is in reference to the Roman Catholic.
I have heard a few Serbs in America object to English liturgy precisely because the word "Catholic" is used liturgically – for "fear" that it would be "misconstrued."
You hardly ever hear any Orthodox clergyman refer to EOC as "Catholic" for fear of being misidentified (is that a "bushism?") as "Greek-Catholic" or "Byzantine-Catholic," etc.
The idea that we are a Catholic Church not in communion with the Bishop of Rome has completely evaporated over centuries, especially in the past one hundred or so years. The whole idea that there is One Church in which some bishops do not commune with others, is completely obliterated.
That we are one Church is without a doubt. How else can we explain that priests who cross from one communion to the other do not need to be re-ordained, unless it is one and the same Church? The same doesn't hold for the "priests" of other "branches." Anglican priests who choose to return to the Church are always re-ordained in the East and in the West.
When we start to think of each other (again) as One Church, in disagreement (which can be resolved in a General Council), and when we treat each other as family who don't see eye to eye on some issues in the house, but not as two different households, perhaps using the word Orthodox and Catholic will not be restricted to capital letters or as exclusive lables for one communiyt or the other.
When we begin to refer to our Church as Catholic, and Latin rite Catholics begin to refer to +Ignatius as an Orthodox saint, proclaiming a Catholic Faith, or when we say that +Leo the Great is an Orthodox Saint (which he is) instead of "the Pope," the idea that the Church is Orthodox and the Faith is Catholic may sink in again.
(Or in plain english:
yes the protestant western government really prefer Muslims to true Christians, and protestants loath the fact that their religion is in fact just a bunch of mutations on Christianity performed by folks most of whom couldn’t read Hello World, let alone the Bible.
** The spirit drives the soul that drives the body that sins..
The spirit also accepts Christs sacrifice and covering..
The spirit can be re-born.. regenerated.. forgiven as a prodigal son to a spiritual father..
The human body is concieved by a man and woman as in all animals and is indeed that bodys Father and Mother, the spirit is added by the heavenly father... and is the father to the spirit.. all of them(spirits).. whether they agree with that or NOT..
Most humans do not know they are indeed spirits in a body suit..
That was pretty much Jesus' ministry to inform them of that.. in a way they could accept.. (some of them)..
The brain is not the soul. Life is the soul.
God created man body+soul (in that order). Our "natural" state, therefore, is body & soul, not just the "naked" soul.
When I look at their history from Abraham to now, I stand in awe: Jesus, Moses, David, the prophets, the apostles, miracle upon miracle, grace upon grace, righteous judgments and ever a remnant, the irrational hatred of them, the persecution, the endurance, their disproportionate success in science and military campaigns.
They are beloved. May God ever bless them.
Sometimes the Spirit leads to me read pseudepigraphral manuscripts, sometimes the Talmud, sometimes Jewish mysticism, sometimes the Catechism, sometimes the commentary of religious leaders. And I trust the indwelling Spirit to illuminate what He wants me to know, and whether He wants me to embrace or to shun an insight.
Many posters here – you included, kosta50 – have said things which the Spirit illuminates to me, sometimes causing them to ring true or flow gently over my spirit - and sometimes causing an alarm. Your love of God always flows within me. Likewise hosepipe’s sense of God’s family coming together.
For me, it seems to always come back to a Name of God. In this case, I AM.
For a Christian, the body is dead, the Spirit is life. The Christian struggle explained in Romans 8, the walk, is to become increasingly aware of this, turning away from the carnal urgings and choosing instead to follow the Spirit. John explains it also using slightly different terms, i.e. walk in the Light.
hosepipe puts it this way: ”Most humans do not know they are indeed spirits in a body suit..”
This is certainly true of newly reborn Christians and is the exhortation of Romans 8, be aware, follow the Spirit.
The Hebrew language insight may support some Calvinist beliefs.
In other words, all living things – bacteria to whales – have an animal soul, the nephesh. This can be understood as the “carnal nature” of Romans 8 - survival, dog eat dog, "I" trouble. Some believe none of these animal souls survive death, some believe they do or some of them do. I do not have a leaning in the spirit either way.
But man, on top of the nephesh also has a soul, the ruach. Some see this as the “image of God” – to decide (free will) which includes the ability to intend, analyze, reason, value and so on. Some call this “spirit” as well as “soul.” And many believe this survives death though some do not. This is the choosing of Romans 8. The leaning I have in the spirit is that this does indeed survive the first death – but the ruach whose name is not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb will not survive the second death. (Rev)
Now for the Calvinist hitch which is also embraced by many Jews, the neshama - the breath of God. These are the elect, the chosen, the ones with “ears to hear” – the ones drawn to Christ by the Father. Some on the Jewish side believe the neshama is passed down from Adam, genetically so to speak – i.e. that God only did this once. Thus if a man is not a descendent of Adam, he cannot be saved. Others believe that God gives neshama to whom He wills, probably at conception.
But in either case, the neshama is the breath of God, it is timeless. If the breath of God cannot be destroyed, then the elect cannot resist the calling and therefore because God is timeless, the elect are chosen from the foundation of the world.
Of course there are many who believe every man has the neshama - every man has “ears to hear”.
I do not have a leaning in the Spirit as to when or how we receive the neshama nor do I want to make any presumptions about it. I do have a leaning in the Spirit (confirmed in Scripture) that not every man has the neshama or "ears to hear."
Still, the neshama is not the Holy Spirit Himself (ruach Elohim). The indwelling of the Spirit is the rebirth – when we receive Him were are alive with Christ in God. The Spirit is life, the body is dead. (John 3, Col 3:3, Romans 8 and so on.) His presence is the determining factor, whether our names are recorded and/or not erased in the Book of Life. (Rev 3:5 etc.)
Notice the revelation of the Trinity in the confirmation here:
No, because they do not read the Bible first and then reach conclusions. They reach the conclusion first and then camoflage the conclusions with Bible verses. For this they deserve no respect.
What is life Kosta?.. DNA?...
Are we DNA-osaurs or spirit beings?..
This could answer the so-called orthodox christians view towards Jesus physical body and almost total neglect of his Spirit.. which he was before Mary was born and after and is now..
The reverse being true if the Spirit does not dwell in you then you are in your FLESH.. And would want some respect for flesh to be shown.. The Bible, especially the New testament is a MIRROR of/to the flesh.. Displaying what the spirit/Spirit is NOT..
When you comb whatever hair you have left by looking into as mirror.. You can see both the/your flesh and your spirit looking back at you..
I was suggesting that it could be right in front of us, but imperceivable. Such might be the case for us as compared to a 2-dimensional man "living" on a plane. Carrying out the idea, God could be (is) all around us, but not perceivable physically.
Again, this is all speculation and attempts to work out the intellect of our faith - called theology. Rightly, we really don't know what the after-life will be like. Perhaps we are quibbling over an undefinable thing.
I agree completely. It's just a fun mental exercise. I like it because it is so way over my head. :)
All scripture is God-breathed. Peter recognizes Paul's writings as scripture. Maybe I don't know what you mean.
Christ DID leave men. No circular argument there. Men who HE promised He would guide through the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit will lead these men astray?
I believe the Holy Spirit leads all believers, including the first Christians after the Apostles. However, it is clear that not everyone gets everything at the exact same time, and in the same amounts. Sanctification is tailored by the Spirit to the individual. The Spirit leads no one "astray", but we humans still make mistakes.
The fact of the matter is that Christianity existed for at least 20 years without ANY New Testament whatsoever. Apparently, God was able to use clay vessels as His instruments to effectively begin the Church.
That's true, but nevertheless the NT scripture was still obviously being taught orally. That does not offend Sola Scriptura at all.
Now, to tweak you some more...I would say that the Scriptures were of very little effect in the conversion of the Gentiles in the first century. Why? Because the Scriptures had no authority for Gentiles. How could Paul or Peter argue from a book that had no special position to them? That would be like me arguing from the Iliad...
They argued from pure truth, and it was God who convicted His elect, NOT the Apostles then, and not us now. The scriptures BECAME authority for God's chosen.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.