Posted on 12/04/2006 10:22:38 AM PST by SirLinksalot
Which One God? Comparing the Muslim and Christian conceptions of God.
By Bat Yeor
With the passing of time, hidden challenges, which for a long time had been growing unnoticed and unaddressed, can suddenly emerge into the full-blown light of current events with a force which seems quite overwhelming. Today the Western world, or Judeo-Christian civilization, shaken by jihadist terror, is being rudely awakened to theological realities blurred for decades. From clashes of civilizations to the jihad that is declaring to the planet its genocidal intentions, rational discourse concerning faith is becoming increasingly fraught.
It is within this tumult and confusion that Mark Durie, an Anglican minister, has written Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God?, in which he raises a couple of fundamental questions: Who is God? Is God Allah? Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?
To answer these questions, he analyzes Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God in Christianity and Islam. The reader is given a concise representation of Muslim and Christian arguments. Such an endeavor needs both solid scholarship and theological training. Mark Durie possesses both, being a theologian and a graduate in the language and culture of the Acehnese, a Muslim people from the north of Sumatra in Indonesia. In addition, the subjects he addresses, in the current context, request much intellectual integrity and courage.
But how to know the identity of “God” in the Koran and in the Bible? The author stresses that this profound and deep question requires engaging with the very essence of God’s identity. With perspicacity and great objectivity, Durie delineates the diverse aspects of his investigations, but he warns that his book should be seen only as guidance, and not the last word.
Durie’s questioning grows from the Koran’s statement that Jesus is a Muslim prophet, named Isa — a prophet whose birth, life, teaching, and death are found to be totally at odds with the testimony of the Gospels and with Biblical theology. The Koran — which for Muslims is the literal word of Allah that cannot be doubted — affirms that Muhammad’s prophetic message is exactly the same as that expressed by the Torah and the Gospels. Since there are many contradictions between the Koran and the Bible, Muslim orthodoxy considers the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity as falsifications of the primal and unique Islamic revelation. It is this accusation that provided the doctrinal justification for the discriminatory legal status of Jews and Christians living under Islam.
In the first section, the author provides information about and reflections upon the Muslim Jesus (Isa). He stresses as fundamental the Koran’s teaching that Islam is the first, primordial religion, preceding Judaism and Christianity, which are dismissed as invalid traditions, being falsified versions of Islam. Because Christianity and Judaism are thought to be a corruption of the pure message of Islam, anything true in these religions comes from their Islamic roots. Consequently, to obey their true religion, Jews and Christians should “revert” to Islam and accept the prophethood of Muhammad.
This implies, writes Durie, that anyone who opposes Muhammad is not a true Christian, nor a true Jew. Seen in this light, the Koranic verses sympathetic to Jews and Christians refer to those who will see the light and find it to be Islam. If Islam recognizes only itself in Judaism and Christianity, one can wonder whether this replacement theology is not the negation of the very principle of recognition of other religions.
Many Christians profess that Christianity is closer to Islam than to Judaism, because of a common reverence of Jesus/Isa and his mother Mary. They will be astonished to learn from Durie that according to hadiths — acts and sayings attributed to Muhammad, and endowed with theological and legislative authority — Isa, the Muslim Jesus, will be the ultimate destroyer of Christianity.
Durie examines the characters of Jesus and Isa, separated by six centuries; he compares their name and biographies and explains the differing understandings of the prophecy in the Bible and the Koran. While Christianity accepts Jewish Scriptures as the foundation of their belief and practice, and as an integral part of Christian ministry, read in churches around the world, Muslims disregard the Bible. They claim that it is Islam that is the common heritage of Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and that Jews and Christians should work to recover this heritage. Durie comments that, in this process, the Islamization of Jesus and the Hebrew patriarchs and prophets destroys both Christianity and Judaism.
The author analyses with great clarity and depth the fundamental principles of the two religions and, in a powerful chapter that raises essential questions, he discusses the concept of “Abrahamic Faith” that has become so fashionable today as a framework for dialogue. This definition, he points out, originates from the Koranic statement that Abraham was a Muslim prophet and from Islam’s core doctrine that Islam was the one revelation given to humanity by Allah through the Biblical figures and through Jesus. For Durie, the many “Abrahamic Faith” conferences throughout the world point to the Islamization of Christian understandings of interfaith dialogue. How should Christians respond to this claim which is a fundamental point of Muslim doctrine? Durie develops several arguments based on a rational analysis of history and the texts.
In his conclusion, Durie writes that profound contrasts exist in Islam and Christianity in their understanding of the identity of God. These have far-reaching implications, affecting attitudes, ethics, and politics. The clarification of misunderstandings and false assumptions, masterly exposed by Durie, is a condition to open the way for more constructive dialogue.
Durie’s book could not have been more timely. He offers a well-balanced analysis, acknowledging the important similarities of the two faiths, without ever misrepresenting the real disagreements or ignoring the hard issues. In this time of globalization, when crucial challenges are emerging for the West’s post-Christian societies, Durie’s reflections provide essential and fundamental guidance that will enable Christians to engage in a dialogue based on truth.
This is all the more urgent now that the cultural jihad in the West is preventing the free expression of thought and belief, and is subverting the whole ethical foundation of Judeo-Christianity.
— Bat Yeor is the author of studies on the conditions of Jews and Christians in the context of the jihad ideology and the sharia law. Recent books include: Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide and Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, both at Fairleigh Dickinson University Press.
The NT fully affirms all that is written in the OT.
The Koran makes the claim that previous revelations are corrupt and thus contradicts them.
Your comparison of the NT succession to the OT and the Koran succession to the NT/OT hasn't been thoughtful.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them,"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
By this statement Jesus affirms his pre-existence and lays claim to the name give to Moses at the burning bussh.
As the apostles stood on the shoulders of the prophets of the OT without having the NT,
I now have the NT and the luxury thankfully of standing on the shoulders of the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles.
My pleasure. I found this when I first started to hear about the expectations Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had for the "Mahdi" and it stunned me how it paralleled the Biblical account, but in reverse. I tell people that the two belief systems (Christian vs Islamic eschatology) seem to fit together like a "zipper".
Are you saying then that, for instance, all the appointed times - Sabbaths and feasts - are affirmed in the NT? Will you be observing Pesach, Sukkot, or even Chanukah this year as Y'shua did? Will you be spending Sabbaths in the synagogue as was Y'shua's custom and as Jacob/James enjoined new proselytes to do - so as to learn Moses (Acts 15)?
There is nothing special about the 'I am' above.
I 1473 - from the Greek ego {eg-o'} 1) I, me, my
am 1510 - from the Greek eimi {i-mee'} 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Those very words are spoken by numerous people throughout the NT and guess what. They weren't God either. Instead of trying to force the text to say something that isn't there, why don't you just accept what the text actually says?
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Is Jesus asking why he forsook himself?
John 14:28 My Father is greater than I.
God and Jesus are NOT the same entity.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
God and Jesus are NOT the same entity.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Are angels stronger than God? There are two wills spoken of in the above verses. God and Jesus are NOT the same entity.
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." I Cor 10:12
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all the requirements of the Law for me and I am forever grateful for his work on my behalf.
bump for later read.
Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 "Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
Note: The speaker makes it abundantly clear that He is God Himself.
14 "Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 "I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 "Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."
There you have it: Old Testament Trinity... though not understood fully until Jesus revealed Himself. The speaker is God and yet the Lord God sent Him and His Spirit. This theology is affirmed in the Gospel of John:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Thanks
A quick glance at fox martyr son's posting history reveals that his very first post was on the Sabbath.
White grapes - bummer
loved this:
"A. - "I am not a Muslim, so I don´t run that risk. Besides, I haven´t offended against the Koran"
Q. - But you still preferred to use a pseudonym.
A. - "I did that on the advice of Muslim friends who were afraid that some enthusiastic fundamentalist would act of his own initiative, without waiting for a fatwa."
I celebrate the Sabbath everyday!
There is a difference between "celebrating" and "observing" and non-observance carries a penalty.
Exodus 31:14-15
If God turns His back on sinners, then why send His Son at all? He came when we were at our worst. If we believe that God is Love and loves us unconditionally, how can we believe that He would turn His back on us for our sins? We turn our backs to Him when we sin.
The speaker is clearly Isaiah himself.
Many times in the book of Isaiah God speaks though Isaiah then Isaiah speaks as well. The prophet was sent by God, given the power of the Holy Spirit to preach repentance to Israel.
No where in that chapter is the Trinity found. The Trinity is a pagan theology that came from that abomination called the council of Nicea. It has corrupted the true meaning of the Father and his son Jesus.
As to your second quote. The word "Word" is from the Greek Logos.
It means the plan of God. Thus John is telling his readers that the plan of God was with God from the beginning. Thus he goes on and says that the word/logos/plan of salvation for mankind was made flesh with the birth of Jesus.
In addition calling the plan of God, the logos "him" is like calling a table "he".It makes no sense. Thus the true translation of your verses should read
2 It was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through it, and apart from it nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In it was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
After you die, it's not how many sins did you commit but "what did you do with my son, I sent Him to die for your sins, did you accept that or not? "
Um, no. But thank you for the conversation. You are free to believe as you will... God gave us free will. I will not change your mind but I pray the Spirit will in His own time.
May God bless you.
This is a group of Jews who think Jesus is the Messiah.
1. That would make them Christians, like the apostles who believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
2.Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. - tom
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