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To: stfassisi; Running On Empty
1 Cor. 11:26 - Paul teaches that as often as you eat the bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death. This means that celebrating the Eucharist is proclaiming the Gospel.

I agree with you that partaking of the bread and wine as Paul says is a proclamation of the "Lord's death until he comes."

But Paul does not say that we are proclaiming the Lord's deaths[plural]. Paul says "death"[singular] not "deaths"[plural]. The Catholic position is that Jesus is sacrificed every day at every mass at every Catholic Church on the globe which means "deaths"[plural] and a lot of them.

Paul says that we are proclaiming a single event, a single death that happened only once in history --- the Lord's death[singular] on Calvary, period.

And the words: "until he comes" follow in that same verse, even in my Catholic Family Bible, indicating clearly that Jesus is not present right there in the bread and wine. The very act of partaking of the bread and wine indicates that He is not present. His absence from our presence because of His death on Calvary is what is being proclaimed until the day when returns as He promised.

As far as "eating and drinking unworthily", it is those who demean the singular death of Jesus on Calvary and its efficacy who are eating and drinking unworthily. They are the ones who demean the value of that one death by their words and deeds to the demeaning effect that His one sacrifice was not enough to save sinners but needs to be followed up again and again day after day place after place ad infinitum without end. They are the ones who do not see the "worth" in that one singular death 2000 years ago, but continue to eat and drink unworthily. Food for thought.

14 posted on 11/22/2006 7:11:12 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

In the last chapter of Luke, we are told that the disciples , along the road to Emmaus, did not recognize Jesus as He joined them and explained Scripture to them, but their "hearts were burning in their breasts" during that discourse with Him, and because of this they begged Him to "remain withn them". He assented, and when they were at table, they recognized Him at the breaking of the bread", at which time He disappeared. Yet, He remained with them, in the breaking of the bread. All this points to the form of liturgy still in practice--the Liturgy (public worship) of the Word proclaimed (Scripture)and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Thanksgiving)--the Word made flesh now transubstantiated. This is what we believe as Catholics and for all faithful Catholics, all the dotted i's and crossed t's won't change this belief.

Count me among those.


16 posted on 11/22/2006 7:53:50 PM PST by Running On Empty
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To: Uncle Chip
The Catholic position is that Jesus is sacrificed every day at every mass at every Catholic Church on the globe which means "deaths"[plural] and a lot of them.

That is not true. The Catholic position is indeed that in the mass Jesus is offered in sacrifice every day around the world, but that sacrifice is the one sacrifice (and therefore only one death) that occurred on Calvary. The mass is a participation in Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, not a re-sacrifice.

When you are in a position of not knowing much about something, the best way to approach it is to ask questions, instead of presuming to teach and correct those who do know about it.

-A8

19 posted on 11/22/2006 9:09:19 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Uncle Chip
But Paul does not say that we are proclaiming the Lord's deaths[plural]. Paul says "death"[singular] not "deaths"[plural]. The Catholic position is that Jesus is sacrificed every day at every mass at every Catholic Church on the globe which means "deaths"[plural] and a lot of them.

No, the Catholic Church does not believe nor does she teach that Christ is sacrificed anew at each Mass.

The Church believes and teaches that at each Mass the very same, one time Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross is made present upon the altar and is offered to the Father for the forgiveness of our sins.

From the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.[182] In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.[183] "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."[184]

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."[185] In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."[186]

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: [Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.[187]

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."[188]

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/euch1.html#MEMORIAL

But Paul does not say that we are proclaiming the Lord's deaths[plural]. Paul says "death"[singular] not "deaths"[plural].

andPaul says that we are proclaiming a single event, a single death that happened only once in history --- the Lord's death[singular] on Calvary, period.

Since it is the same Sacrifice and the same Victim offered at each Mass, the Church is proclaiming (making present) the Lord's death [singular].

And the words: "until he comes" follow in that same verse, even in my Catholic Family Bible, indicating clearly that Jesus is not present right there in the bread and wine. The very act of partaking of the bread and wine indicates that He is not present. His absence from our presence because of His death on Calvary is what is being proclaimed until the day when returns as He promised.

First, Jesus "absence" in not due to His death upon the Cross. Remember, He rose again on the third day and was physically present for forty days until His ascension into Heaven. If He is absent, then how can He be our mediator to the Father? How could He be the one path to Heaven if He is not around?

Yet, if He is absent from us, then what did He mean when He said that He would be with us until the end of the world?

If He meant it only in an ethereal way, then He is only present in spirit, which could give the appearance of absence, but He would be present in an intangible way. ie. "Where two or three are gathered in My Name I am in their midst."

However, when He took bread and said "This is My Body", and took wine and said "This is My Blood", He gave us the means so that He could continue to be physically present with us, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity until the end of the world.

Second, "The very act of partaking of the bread and wine indicates that He is not present." would be true if it is only bread and wine.

However, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord. St. Paul tells us in verses 24 "And giving thanks, broke, (bread) and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me." Notice that the bread is Christ's Body which shall be delivered up. It is not a piece of bread to be delivered up, but the Body of Jesus Himself.

and 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me." Again we see that the wine contained in the cup is the Blood that will seal the new testament.

and verse 27 "Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." Again, St. Paul equates the bread to the Lord's Body and the wine to the Blood. If the bread is not His Body and the wine is not His Blood, then eating a piece of bread or drinking a cup of wine is nothing more than an ordinary act, which would be morally neutral.

So the very act of partaking in the bread and wine, does indicate that Jesus is truly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

As far as "eating and drinking unworthily", it is those who demean the singular death of Jesus on Calvary and its efficacy who are eating and drinking unworthily. They are the ones who demean the value of that one death by their words and deeds to the demeaning effect that His one sacrifice was not enough to save sinners but needs to be followed up again and again day after day place after place ad infinitum without end. They are the ones who do not see the "worth" in that one singular death 2000 years ago, but continue to eat and drink unworthily. Food for thought.

St. Paul does not say that at all. Here are his words: "27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord."

What St. Paul is saying here is 1) Those who do not belive that the bread is the Body and the wine is the Blood of Our Lord, then he brings judgement upon themselves. 2) That those in grave, unrepented sin bring judgement upon themselves.

Your final paragraph would apply only if an individual believes that at every Mass or every Non-Catholic Communion Service that Jesus is re-sacrificed. However, the Mass does not re-sacrifice Our Lord over and over, nor does a Non-Catholic Communion Service.

24 posted on 11/22/2006 11:47:49 PM PST by pipeorganman
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