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To: cornelis; Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg
define free

I agree. Add to that: "Define Will."

As alamo-girl has so ably point out, there are a host of if/then's throughout the bible; there are commandments; and there are instructions to "choose."

All of these indicate what is commonly referred to as free will.

The word "supralapsarian" (or infralapsarian) does not appear anyplace in scripture. And it doesn't have anywhere near the support of scripture as does "free will" and "prevenient grace."

Dortists will follow it "hook, line, and sinker."

Disengenuous dortists will even claim that grace doesn't exist prior to one's salvation. I'm betting that Calvin believed in some kind of common grace (prevenient), and that his writings will reveal the same.

Go figure.

741 posted on 11/29/2006 2:26:02 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Alamo-Girl
As alamo-girl has so ably point out, there are a host of if/then's throughout the bible; there are commandments; and there are instructions to "choose." All of these indicate what is commonly referred to as free will.

Yes, they choose that which they desire most, which is indeed what is commonly referred to as "free will."

The word "supralapsarian" (or infralapsarian) does not appear anyplace in scripture. And it doesn't have anywhere near the support of scripture as does "free will" and "prevenient grace."

"Free will" as defined by one's ability to choose what they want, and "prevenient grace" as defined by the need for God's grace to be applied before man can do anything truly good, are indeed both prevalent in Scripture. That does not necessarily make them "more true" than other concepts which may not be as clearly or explicitly stated.

Dortists will follow it "hook, line, and sinker." Disengenuous dortists will even claim that grace doesn't exist prior to one's salvation. I'm betting that Calvin believed in some kind of common grace (prevenient), and that his writings will reveal the same.

Yes, he did. But the "common grace" Calvin understood to be enjoyed by all individuals everywhere is not the same as that grace which was necessarily precedent to free the will from its bondage to sin in order that it may do anything truly good.

759 posted on 11/29/2006 7:39:21 AM PST by Frumanchu (Historical Revisionism: When you're tired of being on the losing side of history.)
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To: xzins; Frumanchu; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Gamecock; cornelis; Alex Murphy
I'm betting that Calvin believed in some kind of common grace (prevenient), and that his writings will reveal the same.

Don't make the mistake of thinking Calvin equated "common grace" with "prevenient" grace, x.

They are light years apart.

Calvin's understanding of "common grace" as written in his Institutes and Commentaries, refers to the fact that the sun shines on the wicked as well as the redeemed. We all have good days and bad.

However, Calvin never speaks of "prevenient" grace because he does not believe in the faulty concept. It was a phantasy concocted by Wesley to make an end-run around the Reformation and return the church to a works-based salvation.

Sadly, Wesley has succeeded to a large part. But as we're told...

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" -- Matthew 7:14

767 posted on 11/29/2006 9:31:11 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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