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To: Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe
what prevenient grace is good for.

It is God's revealing both His existence and His goodness to humanity so that they are without excuse. It is the beginning of His drawing love. Because of it the justice of God is undeniable. All were drawn. All had the price paid for their sins. Those who resist have no excuse.

This implies to me that God can choose Fred, but then Fred can say "No".

If Fred is among the elect, then Fred will not always resist. Resistance occurs during the drawing....if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. Salvation is by grace through faith. Lostness results from resistance.

My sense is that faith is gifted at the same time as salvation.

689 posted on 11/28/2006 5:59:35 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Forest Keeper
It is God's revealing both His existence and His goodness to humanity so that they are without excuse. It is the beginning of His drawing love. Because of it the justice of God is undeniable. All were drawn. All had the price paid for their sins. Those who resist have no excuse.

That God would offer salvation to all who believe is the ultimate act of graciousness. that man would reject this offer is the ultimate act of ingratitude.

Calvin:

Yet I approve of the common reading, that He alone bore the punishment of many, because the guilt of the whole world was laid upon Him. It is evident from other passages...that 'many' sometimes denotes 'all'...That, then, is how our Lord Jesus bore the sins and iniquities of many. But in fact, this word 'many' is often as good as equivalent to 'all'. And indeed, our Lord Jesus was offered to all the world. For it is not speaking of three or four when it says: 'God so loved the world, that He spared not His only Son.' But yet we must notice what the Evangelist adds in this passage: 'That whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but obtain eternal life.' Our Lord Jesus suffered for all and there is neither great nor small who is not inexcusable today, for we can obtain salvation in Him. Unbelievers who turn away from Him and who deprive themselves of Him by their malice are today doubly culpable. For how will they excuse their ingratitude in not receiving the blessing in which they could share by faith? And let us realize that if we come flocking to our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall not hinder one another and prevent Him being sufficient for each of us...Let us not fear to come to Him in great numbers, and each one of us bring his neighbours, seeing that He is sufficient to save us all. Sermons on Isaiah 53, pp. 136, 141-4

Though the angel only addresses the shepherds, he means that the message of salvation which he brings them extends farther, not for their ears alone, but for others also to hear. Understand that the joy was open to all the people, for it was offered to all without distinction. For He is not the God of this one or of that, but He had promised Christ to the whole family of Abraham. That, in great measure, the Jews have lost the joy that was theirs to hold, resulted from their failure to believe. Today also, God invites all men alike to salvation through the Gospel, but the world's ingratitude makes only a few enjoy the grace, which is set out equally for all. While the joy, then, has been confined to a small number, in respect of God, it is called universal. And though the angel is speaking only of the chosen people, yet now with the partition wall gone the same tidings are presented to the whole human race. Comment on Luke 2:10

Hitherto he addressed the Jews alone, as if to them alone salvation belonged, but now he extends his discourse farther. He invites the whole world to the hope of salvation, and at the same time brings a charge of ingratitude against all the nations, who, being devoted to their own errors, purposely avoided, as it were, the light of life; for what could be more base than to reject deliberately their own salvation?...the Lord...invites all without exception to come to him...Now, we must 'look to him' with the eye of faith, so as to embrace the salvation which is exhibited to all through Christ; for 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him may not perish.' (John 3:16). Comment on Isaiah 45:22

690 posted on 11/28/2006 6:13:10 AM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; Frumanchu; HarleyD
[On prevenient grace:] It is God's revealing both His existence and His goodness to humanity so that they are without excuse. It is the beginning of His drawing love. Because of it the justice of God is undeniable. All were drawn. All had the price paid for their sins. Those who resist have no excuse.

I would agree that men have no excuse, but I do not think this means that all men make a decision for or against Christ from the same platform of grace. If that was true wouldn't you expect the "saved ratio" to be close to if not equal to 100%? Remember your own experience. At that moment was there any hesitation on your part? Was it a decision that could have gone either way?

If Fred is among the elect, then Fred will not always resist.

Does this mean that some among the elect are not eventually saved? Or, more likely, do you mean that Fred might resist for a while, but if he is among the elect, he MUST ultimately come to believe? If true, does that mean that when you say that saving grace is resistible, that it is only temporarily resistible such that saving grace ALWAYS results in salvation? I had always assumed that you all meant permanently resistible (as a possibility).

731 posted on 11/28/2006 10:13:20 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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