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To: adiaireton8
When people claim that the sacraments are means of grace, and then deny that the sacraments are in any way salvific, it is hard for me to see how they are not contradicting themselves.

Well, as you know the subject of grace itself can be as complex as one wishes to make it. In the broad sense, I think "grace" can be considered any aid from God. I think it is correct to say that God graced me by giving me my wife. I'm not saying I think that's how it is presented in the WCF, I probably wouldn't have chosen those words. However, I am reasonably certain that the consensus Reformed view is that baptism carries no salvific effects. I suspect there is an easy explanation for the language of the WCF, and I'm just not seeing it right now.

And if it is not in any way salvific, then *why* do it?

We baptize because it is commanded by God. It is a public obedience to Him. Covenant baptism has additional benefits.

As Flannery O'Connor once said, "Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it."

Now you have to admit that's the epitome of irony coming from a Catholic! :)

501 posted on 11/22/2006 6:02:47 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
We baptize because it is commanded by God. It is a public obedience to Him. Covenant baptism has additional benefits.

Either the "benefits" contribute to salvation or not. If not, then why do them? And if you say, Because God commands, then why would God command you do to do something that did not contribute to your salvation?

Now you have to admit that's the epitome of irony coming from a Catholic!

I would have said the same as a Protestant. But now I realize that we don't have mere symbols. We have things that are truly holy.

-A8

503 posted on 11/22/2006 6:12:56 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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