Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
I agree. Add to that: "Define Will."
As alamo-girl has so ably point out, there are a host of if/then's throughout the bible; there are commandments; and there are instructions to "choose."
All of these indicate what is commonly referred to as free will.
The word "supralapsarian" (or infralapsarian) does not appear anyplace in scripture. And it doesn't have anywhere near the support of scripture as does "free will" and "prevenient grace."
Dortists will follow it "hook, line, and sinker."
Disengenuous dortists will even claim that grace doesn't exist prior to one's salvation. I'm betting that Calvin believed in some kind of common grace (prevenient), and that his writings will reveal the same.
Go figure.
Before you were a Calvinist, what were you?
It is here:
Acts 16:31-34 : 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.
This says to me that Paul told a seeker what must happen for him to enter Heaven. He was correct. In the context of the jailer it is certainly true that he must at some point become a true believer if he is to go to Heaven. It is also true that God uses us Christians in the furtherance of that happening to the elect (in one sense, those already saved). God used Paul, and taught us how we will similarly be used, to bring a seeker toward the, in this case inevitable, goal of acceptance.
Now, God did not need Paul, and does not need us, but He has chosen to use us anyway as witnesses to His sole work. I see that it was actually a blessing TO Paul, and likewise us, to involve him (and us) in the transformation process. We get to watch, and what a wonderful blessing it is.
In the jailer story:
1. Which came first, believing or baptism?
2. Which came first, seeking or believing?
3. Which came first, believing or salvation?
4. Which came first, believing or regeneration?
Hmmm....I haven't followed this conversation all that well but this statement rather intrigued me so, per your suggestion, I went through some of the Catechism on the Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church. Here's one that states the Holy Spirit is the Church:
Here's another that states the Holy Spirit finds its greatest communication through the liturgy:
1. Which came first, believing or baptism?
2. Which came first, seeking or believing?
3. Which came first, believing or salvation?
4. Which came first, believing or regeneration?
Did the Holy Spirit work on the Jailer's heart before or after he believed? Did the Jailer received faith so that he could believe or did he received faith in response to his "taking a step" on his own? Seems to me you've left out an important part of the action.
Did Paul explain to the Jailer the intricate mysteries of predestination and election or did he just tell him that he needed to believe on Jesus Christ?
Are we missing a large chunk of scripture? Did someone edit out that part?
The correct Calvinist response to the Jailer, "What must I do to be saved?" is "Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved." It's a statement, not a plea.
If the Holy Spirit is working on the Jailer's heart, he will receive the words in faith that God has already given him and turn to God. If the Holy Spirit has not worked on the Jailer's heart, he will reject the message and turn away. The Christian shrugs their shoulders and move on knowing that God leads those who He will to repentence.
I didn't leave out anything that I was trying to get an answer to.
Please answer my 4 questions.
Then it looks like Paul must have goofed. Oh well, nobody's perfect.
Not just Paul. "All scripture is inspired by God" is the message of the Bible.
Apparently, God goofed.
691 "Holy Spirit" is the proper name of the one whom we adore and glorify with the Father and the Son. The Church has received this name from the Lord and professes it in the Baptism of her new children.
That is not saying that the Holy Spirit is the Church. In saying "The Church has received this name from the Lord", it is saying that the Church received from Christ the name "Holy Spirit" as the name of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, not as the name of the Church.
-A8
It's a great encouragement for the Philippians to work out their salvation in Paul's absence, reminding them that God is present and active in them.
Sure you did. Where does the Holy Spirit figure into any of this? I'll provide my answers and then please explain how the Holy Spirit works in a person's life and how a person is "born again" under your questions.
2. Which came first, seeking or believing?
If by "regeneration" you mean being "born again" then that wouldn't make any sense either since your question would read, "Which came first, believing or being born again?"
The order of salvation (ordo salutis) as I understand it from you is. If this is incorrect, please rearrange it.
grace
drawing
seeking
Word of God
faith
regeneration
believing
(baptism) not part of the order of salvation, but in sequence it follows becoming a believer.
LOL!! The Holy Spirit gives us what we need to say and to say it at the right time. We don't know if Paul told the jailor anything more than what is written. Paul could have told the jailor a number of things. Do you think that any of it would have made a difference?
BTW-Why did this jailer fall down and ask what he needed to do to be saved while Peter's jailers (Acts 5) never repented after a similar situation and were executed? What was the difference?
So the question is, do those instructions apply to everyone? If your neighbor comes to you and asks "What must I do to be saved?" will you correct his errant soteriology and spend countless hours explaining the intricacies of Dortian Calvinism or will you simply reply, as Paul did, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved?
I suggest that Paul's answer applies to every man that asketh.
1. Grace (election)
2. Drawing (or calling) - e.g. Word of God
Slaves to Righteousness...
7. Sanctification
8. Perseverance
9. Death Yes-death is part of the process for us to be made like Christ.
10. Glorification
Yes, they choose that which they desire most, which is indeed what is commonly referred to as "free will."
The word "supralapsarian" (or infralapsarian) does not appear anyplace in scripture. And it doesn't have anywhere near the support of scripture as does "free will" and "prevenient grace."
"Free will" as defined by one's ability to choose what they want, and "prevenient grace" as defined by the need for God's grace to be applied before man can do anything truly good, are indeed both prevalent in Scripture. That does not necessarily make them "more true" than other concepts which may not be as clearly or explicitly stated.
Dortists will follow it "hook, line, and sinker." Disengenuous dortists will even claim that grace doesn't exist prior to one's salvation. I'm betting that Calvin believed in some kind of common grace (prevenient), and that his writings will reveal the same.
Yes, he did. But the "common grace" Calvin understood to be enjoyed by all individuals everywhere is not the same as that grace which was necessarily precedent to free the will from its bondage to sin in order that it may do anything truly good.
Marking an interesting thread that I somehow missed the past couple of weeks.
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