Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!
Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.
But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:
1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity
Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.
2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism
If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.
3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules
Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.
4. Freedom from Penance
Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.
Repentance/Penance
Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God
Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin
Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught
Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better
Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess
Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God
Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self
Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety
God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.
That is really the difference isn't it?
But we do not "get to heaven" by authority alone, on both Catholic and Protestant accounts.
-A8
Yes, but this person felt that in order for us to be obedient we must be submissive which requires repentance. I find this to be a rather intriguing argument. Notice in your verse:
We first must be transformed in renewing our minds so that we may then prove what is good and acceptable. We can only be obedient to the Father upon repenting and we must confess our sins daily to Him. This seems like a simple concept in humbling ourselves before God sovereignty, but I must say that I didn't really tie obedience into a constant repenting.
By the way, we are to repent and submit to God's sovereign will-not our own. He didn't have very nice things to say about the "name it, claim it" crowd.
I do recall that. I think it started with me asking if there was a Saint for plumbing as my toilets were out. To my surprise there was. There's a Saint for butchery and, if I recall correctly one for financial planning. Surely there can't be one for lawyers although they could sure use one. :O)
What takes precedence, the scriptures or the Catholic Church? Don't answer for I already know the answer.
It isn't really an oversimplification. The fact is Catholics have faith the Church is true and accurate and is what they base their salvation on. Protestants have faith the scriptures are true and accurate and that is what they base their salvation on. Under Catholicism, grace is given through the Church (depending on whether you believe Vatican I or Vatican II). Under Protestantism, grace is given to believers (although, regrettably, most Protestants are muddled in their thinking on how this happens).
HI FK, great to see you too. Hope all is well with you and yours.
-A8
-A8
That's all well and good but in the end you're really placing your faith in what the Church is telling you. They tell people there are these three pillars, blah, blah, blah but a person needs to listen to the "authority" of the Church. They tell people that they'll interpret the scripture, the scripture tells everyone to listen to the Church and they are the Church. People have to go to their church, do their chores, take their wafers, donate to their causes. Such a sweet deal.
Protestants don't just rely upon the scriptures but they listen to the historical voices as well. It's just that we believe the scriptures are the only accurate thing. All others can be subject to error and should be questioned against the scripture. Our faith rest solely on the inspired word of God. (Sounds vaguely like God is one God and this one God has given us His one instrument of faith-His word. Imagine that.)
First, that claim itself is not in Scripture. Second, questioned against whose interpretation of Scripture?
-A8
With all due respect, my FRiend, please read what I said a bit more closely.
I said: God's stance towards me? Honestly, I don't know. All signs point towards my being among the elect, but frankly, I won't know for sure until I stand (or, more likely, grovel) before the Judgement Seat.
I didn't say it's not possible to know. I said that I, Terabitten, don't know. The Scripture says I am...but to be brutally honest, I have trouble believing it sometimes. I know the depths of my own evil, and I wouldn't hold it against God if He chose to send me to Hell. I deserve it.
Chapter and verse?
-A8
Why would I have to know that? I can't know what was in the hearts of those with false faith specifically, but I wasn't comparing to them, I was comparing to what we are told a true Christian looks like. The assurance and perseverance verses show a doctrine that a person with true faith cannot be lost. I believe that doctrine. If the words of the Bible are true, then a person with false faith cannot have truly accepted Christ. This whole thing is a matter of Biblical interpretation.
And, my POV in all this is to answer the question "How does Forest know he is saved", NOT "Can Forest prove to A8 that he is saved". I cannot "prove" it to you or anyone else with absolute certainty because you can't know what's in my heart. I am telling why I think I can know.
In fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite, for there are many cases of people who had great faith, with all those effects, and yet fell away at the end. Think of the great church father Tertullian for example.
But I don't know that there are many examples of people who believe as I do and yet fell away permanently. There are many examples of those who professed great faith, but who can tell what was really in their hearts? I can only be certain about my own faith. How can you be certain that those you are speaking of had true faith?
BTW, I knew that Tertullian was in the Catholic doghouse at the end, but I didn't know that his salvation was questioned. Is it the general view among Catholics that he was probably not saved?
FK: "... Objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people "fits" so I am assured I am one of them."
The problem with this claim is that objectively, everything in the Bible about saved people also fits many (if not most) apostates-to-be, and therefore that undercuts the basis for assurance you are attempting to derive from these passages.
I disagree because the minute you apply this to another person it ceases to be objective and becomes subjective. You cannot know the heart of another, so you cannot presume his faith to be as I claim for myself. Objectivity can only be claimed by the individual about himself.
Have you ever known serious believers who went apostate? It seems that you have not. I have. If you ever do have an experience the apostasy of someone you know well who you would bet your right arm is a genuine believer, it is going to undermine your reason ...
No, I never have to the point of permanency. I have known many who have royally screwed up, but among those I would have bet my right arm about, none who have appeared to leave the faith forever. I accept that you have, and that just goes to show that we can never be certain about anyone else. The Reformed view is that a person with true faith might fall away for a time, even possibly a prolonged time, but the scriptures clearly state that God will not lose one of His sheep, and the person will be brought back into the fold before the end.
FK: "In fact, the Bible promises that He won't."
Of course. But that promise doesn't do any good to those who don't know whether they are elect.
Since your position seems to be that no one can know if he is of the elect, then what ARE those Biblical promises FOR? Your position appears to be that they are good to no one.
But, if it turned out that [you] are an apostate-to-be, and are not elect, then if when you fall away, this wouldn't invalidate the Bible in the least, since all those 'assurance verses' never applied to you in the first place.
I reject the premise because it is an impossibility. :)
HA! Au Contraire, my good friend. :) You don't really think we lawyers would let ourselves get cheezed out of having our own patron saint do you? In fact, we don't have one, we have 6 OF THEM! My favorite is Saint Genesius of Rome because he is also the patron saint of clowns, comedians, and comics. :)
Not only is the perfection of the word talked about in scripture, the Church fathers endorsed that view. If you think man's wisdom is perfect, I would read 1 Cor.
Second, questioned against whose interpretation of Scripture?
Good question. Is it our personal study of the scripture to show ourselves approved or do we take the advice of a group of people throughout the ages telling us what to believe? In the end everyone of us is accountable for our beliefs. We won't be able to say the Church told me this was true.
The assurance is He writes his covenant in your heart. If you believe scripture is the inspired word given of God, its words confirm that knowledge and both parallel. As a Baptist preacher said once, "You just know that you know.."
Regards...
2 Timothy 3:14-17
The 8th chapter of Romans is a big one for me.
I was wondering what you would pray to a patron saint of lawyers,
Hmmmmm....seems a tad strange but then there's your Saint Genesius, the patron saint of clowns. As I thought about this it seems even stranger:
I know a lot of ministers who need Saint Genesius help on this one. :O)
A8: First, that claim itself is not in Scripture.
HD: Not only is the perfection of the word talked about in scripture, the Church fathers endorsed that view. If you think man's wisdom is perfect, I would read 1 Cor.
The claim that is not in Scripture is not that the Scripture is perfect, but that "All others can be subject to error and should be questioned against the scripture". The Bible never says that the Sacred Magisterium is subject to error, or that the Sacred Tradition is subject to error, or that laymen should use their own interpretations of Scripture to question or critically evaluate the Sacred Tradition or the determinations of the Sacred Magisterium.
-A8
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.