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To: Mad Dawg; ears_to_hear; Kolokotronis; Campion
the English WORD priest is alleged by people who do that kind of thing, do be derived from presybuteros though it is often used in English to mean what is signified by hierous.

English cognates are irrelevant. The argument that presbuteros is the root for our word "priest," so presbuters must, of course, have cultic priestly duties (using "cultic" as a term of art, not as an attack) is an exegetical fallacy. The fact that, 2000 years later, presbuteros has come to mean "priest" in an unrelated language that has undergone centuries of cultural evolution is of no probative value in this discussion. Far more important is the semantic domain of presbuteros in the secular and ancient Christian world near the first century.

In the ancient secular world, presbuteros was frequently used as a title for the Spartan president of a college, in Egyptian inscriptions both in the Ptolemaic and Imperial periods to describe the board of national husbandmen, members in a miller's guild, and village government officials with administrative and judicial functions. In the ancient Jewish world, the term "presbyter" was used to refer the entire aristocratic gerousia, and eventually came to refer to the lay members on the Sanhedrin who were not members of the priestly families (and so the Sanhedrin was never within the hands of the presbuteroi.)

In the New Testament, presbyters clearly had teaching and disciplinary powers (1Pt. 5:2, Ac. 20:28, 1Ti. 5:17). In 1Timothy, Paul seems to use the phrase episkopos and presbuteros interchangeably, since they have the same powers (cf. 1Ti. 5:17 with 3:5, 3:2, and Tit. 1:9). This would lead to the inference (though not necessary) that the two are the same office.

Now, admittedly, the cultic ministry of the presbyters is referred to in the earliest of extrabiblical Christian literature (specifically, 1Clement 40:2; 44:2-6). According to Clement, the presbyters were tasked with presenting the offerings of the congregation (44:4) and were cultic officers of the church's Eucharist. Importantly, 1Clement 40-43 placed presbuteros expressly in the line of succession with Old Testament priests. By the time the Shepherd of Hermas was written, there was clearly an established presbyteral order with dignity derived from their association with the apostles. (Shep. visions 3, 5, 1).

This entire post is plagarized (but paraphrased) from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 6, pp. 672-673.

377 posted on 11/04/2006 1:41:43 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24; Mad Dawg
Interestingly, the wife of a priest is called "Presbytera" in Greek and has been for at least the past 1800 years. We also use the term "Protopresbyter" for an archpriest. But the word for priest in Greek is IereaV, as Mad Dawg wrote. We also use the term PapaV, Papas, but not Presbyteros.

I have to say that the ancient usage of Presbytera probably answers the question of what the NT meaning of Prebyteros was.

379 posted on 11/04/2006 1:59:16 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: jude24
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament,

The whole set was an ordination present from my parish. Is that a great present or WHAT?

Ears_to_hear had a decent line in the definition of presbyter - someone who presides at an ecclesiastical assembly (or words to that effect)(As I recall) In the early '70's Virginia Theological PepsiCola Seminary was going through a neo-orthodox (No. Kolokotronis - not THAT Orthodox -- they meant like Calvin) phase -- for which I bless it since I think it started a hare in my mind and heart which I chased until it led me, finally, to swim the Tiber. But certainly the thinking then was that the presence of the presbyter sort of certified the ekklesia as a bona fide ekklesia with all the mojo thereunto appertaining. If where the bishop is, there is the Catholic church was true, then where the bishop's deputy, so to speak, was, there was etc.

And my increasingly dimming recollection is that the roles and notions of servant, elders, and supervisor took a little while to settle down with the role of elders taking the longest to solidify, sicut dixit jude24.

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm saying what I recall being taught.

383 posted on 11/04/2006 2:48:35 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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