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To: jude24; kosta50; Agrarian; Claud; Campion
"Could it have come out any other way? Absolutely not."

Interesting take on the meaning of Luke 1:38. The Fathers generally pointed out Panagia's "assent" or "obedience", both terms in Greek implying a free choice, not the act of an automoton and therefore, while her assent freely given was foreseen, it was not inevitable. For example:

"And when she asked in her perplexity, How can this be, seeing I know not a man ? the angel again answered her, The Holy Spirit shall came upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God . And she said to him, Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it unto me according to Thy word . So then, after the assent of the holy Virgin, the Holy Spirit descended on her, according to the word of the Lord which the angel spoke, purifying her , and granting her power to receive the divinity of the Word, and likewise power to bring forth." +John of Damascus, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book III, Chapter 2

"For inasmuch as He had a pre-existence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the Being who saves should not exist in vain. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race." +Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 22

"Wherefore we acknowledge one Christ, one Son, our Lord Jesus Christ; knowing that being coeternal with His own Father as touching His Godhead, by virtue of which also He is creator of all, He deigned, after the assent of the Holy Virgin, when she said to the angel ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word’ to build after an ineffable fashion a temple out of her for Himself, and to unite this temple to Himself by her conception, not taking and uniting with Himself a body coeternal with His own substance, and brought from heaven, but of the matter of our substance, that is of the Virgin." Blessed Theodoretus, Bishop of Cyrus, Dialogue II

In consequence of this, Orthodoxy also teaches and holds, and I suspect the Latin Church does too, "...the Virign Mary is honored noy only because God chose her, or because she bore the Son of God in the flesh, but also because she herself chose to believe and obey God firmly."

367 posted on 11/04/2006 9:15:50 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
"...the Virgin Mary is honored noy only because God chose her, or because she bore the Son of God in the flesh, but also because she herself chose to believe and obey God firmly."

I don't disagree at all. I think you have trouble with my concept that inevitability doesn't destroy the reality of her free-will decision to assent. The difference, I think is that I am friendlier to the concept of predestination than you by virtue of my Reformed tradition.

I think we agree a lot more than we disagree. We agree Mary was freely obedient, that she was preserved righteous by sanctifying grace, and this sanctifying grace was not intrinsic to her, but was rather divine in origin. The disagreements between me as a Protestant and you as Orthodox and Campion as Catholic are relatively small. The outer bounds of Mary's sanctifying grace are the main source of our disagreement - the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics believe Mary must have been preserved sinless (although I understand the logical chain of inferences the Catholics and the Orthodox follow to get to that conclusion), whereas I as a Protestant do not see that as theologically necessary. With that reservation, as a Protestant, I stand with Calvin and Luther in noting that Mary was quite the virtuous woman and one of the premier models for a Christian to emulate for obedience to the Almighty.

368 posted on 11/04/2006 9:39:48 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Kolokotronis; Campion
The Fathers generally pointed out Panagia's "assent" or "obedience", both terms in Greek implying a free choice, not the act of an automoton and therefore, while her assent freely given was foreseen, it was not inevitable.

Remember - as a Predestinarian, I don't think "free choice" and inevitability are mutually exclusive - nor do I think predestination of anyone's choices, let alone that of Mary, would render them an automaton. As Phil 2:13 states - God is at work in us both to will and to work his good pleasure. The mechanism whereby our free will is conformed with his is quite a mystery, but it is clearly taught in the New Testament.

It seems a good and reasonable inference that this mechanism, however it works, applied to the Theokotos too.

(Campion - I meant to ping you above.)

369 posted on 11/04/2006 9:44:01 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: Kolokotronis; jude24; Campion

Thanks. Really lovely.


375 posted on 11/04/2006 1:08:25 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Now we are all Massoud)
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To: Kolokotronis; jude24; kosta50; Agrarian; Claud; Campion

I probably shouldn't get into this this late, but let me just say that as far as our free will is concerned, unless we are willing to give God credit for our sin, we are free to resist God's will (or else the whole idea of sin is meaningless). God created Hell only for Satan and his demons. The fact that many men will undoubtedly follow in their footsteps is clearly the result of their will to follow Satan, and not God. We condemn ourselves as much as, by cleaving to God, we are saved by His grace alone.


403 posted on 11/04/2006 8:03:35 PM PST by kosta50 (Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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