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To: William Terrell
in the scripture you posted, where is there any indication that Paul is referring to a all powerful central church

You mean St. Matthew, Chapter 18.

The passage simply says that the decision of the Church is binding on the disputants on earth and in heaven. This is the literal meaning.

Now it is fair to ask, is the reference to the local church or to the universal Church? The answer is, obviously, both. The disputants naturally have to address the dispute in some local venue, so it is local. But the decision that local church makes is binding in Heaven. Now, unless you are going to argue that there is a separate Heaven for every disputant, we have to conclude from this passage alone that the decision of the local church is uniform to every local church, and that means powerful central Church present as the background for the decision.

There is other scripture that indicates that the Church has hierachical structure:

if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 17 For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord; who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus; as I teach every where in every church. 18 As if I would not come to you, so some are puffed up. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will: and will know, not the speech of them that are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in speech, but in power. 21 What will you? shall I come to you with a rod; or in charity, and in the spirit of meekness?

(1 Cor 4)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body

[...]

26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

(1 Cor 12)

Any such organization is created by the people, given power by the people choosing at each moment to submit to the organization's agreed upon guidelines and behavior commanded by scripture itself, exist only as long as there are people belonging to it at their election.

This is scripturally incorrect. The authority of the Church comes from Christ, not form the assembly of believers:

I will build my church

(Matthew 16:18)

1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

(1 Cor 4)

I'd like to focus on the scripture and the question of Church authority, but if you need to discuss my personality, or what other scripture I know, let's do it later. I can generally say that as a Catholic I do not make the distinction between Church and scripture as scripture is a product of the Church (On Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition).
840 posted on 11/14/2006 9:52:10 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Matthew is not about a church, it is about the individual and his ability to do all thing regarding his own salvation. This is its literal meaning. Any interpretation impressed on it is for the purpose of an outside human agency grasping power over the human soul.

The decision of an individual is binding in Heaven. Organizations have no souls, and are unneedful of salvation.

As I said, individuals at their own pleasure tend to congregate in groups. It is not the group that is important, but the individual. Your's is the corporate viewpoint. The gospels are not for corporations.

The scriptures yield a very good description of the interdependency on each individual on each other in the body of Christ. Pushing an all powerful church that has sovereignty over the individuals is, again, a corporate viewpoint.

Jesus did not speak to corporations, He spoke to individuals.

Yes, He did build His church. It is the body of believers all over the world, however not under the wing of any spiritual despot. That is scriptural. The interpretation you impress on it is not consistent with the sovereignty of an individual over his own salvation preached by Jesus.

I don't recall discussing your personality. I was just puzzled how you can be unmindful of all the instances where Jesus clearly told the individual how to gain the Kingdom, where it was, and what to do, doable >only by the individual, to gain salvation. None of which required a church, except for the pleasure of those who like group worship.

There must be some cognitive dissonance there. But, then, the Catholic church has a lot of wealth and power to loose should their con job come to light.

841 posted on 11/14/2006 12:26:37 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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