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To: William Terrell
No

Cognratulations. You just refused to read the Gospel because you don't like what is says.

if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Incidentally, why are we doing this on the St. Peter and Rome thread, when I posted On Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition that specifically and systematically addresses the question of church authority?

838 posted on 11/13/2006 2:42:37 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
You challenged me on this thread, and on this thread we'll continue it. If you would like me on another thread, I'll be glad to post all the posts I've made so far on this one.

I can't reconcile the impression you, probably the church as the source, put on scripture. Do you know scripture pretty well beyond what the church bears down on?

Show me, in the scripture you posted, where is there any indication that Paul is referring to a all powerful central church. This passage of scripture is a fragment of Paul's advice on how to handle a fellow believer's sin and transgression. Note that Paul says go first to the trespasser yourself, then bring two to help you and then ask help of the fellows of the local church of believers.

The bound and loose reference in this case obviously refers to the transgressor. This is the old spiritual law we've seen before. Cast bread on the water and it''ll return sevenfold, kill with the sword and be killed with the sword, and other ways of saying I don't call to mind right now.

You'll be called to account for your words, and deeds, each one, a record of which will be remembered in the judgment of your soul. The Eastern religions refer to it as "karma", used with reincarnation, but the same principle.

Notice that Paul is talking about a behavior of general Christian believers who have a quarrel, the word "you" refers to generally to those same people should they transgress.

This is consistent with the rest of the Gospels, and Paul, which and whom taught to individual people the way, performed entirely by the individual, capable of being done only by an individual, to salvation.

Only by ignoring the rest of the Gospels, Acts and letters can you impress such an interpretation on this fragment of scripture.

As I mentioned in a post some while back, the way the Catholic church looks on the scriptures is consistent with it's importance, the scriptures seen as the foundation for a corporate rule.

From the words and the clear meaning of the scriptures, the authority of spiritual salvation, the worthiness of one's soul for salvation, the presence of one's name in the Book, the rewards for faith and belief, the location of the Kingdom, is assigned to each individual for himself. None can do it for you; only you.

That it is a nature of human beings to do this in groups, called churches, magnifying the "two or more" promise by Christ, satisfying our gregariousness, and learning from the testimony of others, is quite beside the point.

Any such organization is created by the people, given power by the people choosing at each moment to submit to the organization's agreed upon guidelines and behavior commanded by scripture itself, exist only as long as there are people belonging to it at their election.

No such human organization creates itself, and God certainly did not create it, only the need of people to worship together, God being present if He is called by the hearts of individuals thereof by their own choice. And, if a government, by the leaders, at their choice.

This is the way God's works, from my observation and reading. He knows each sparrow, and each hair on each head. He is available to each individual in prayer, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, and He allows salvation to come to the each individual.

No gatekeeper church that I can see. of course, the Catholic church, via you, see it differently. It has much to lose in wealth and power, for its power is the people who believe in it.

839 posted on 11/13/2006 5:53:45 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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