[adiaireton8]

He [Augustine] was a Presbyterian of the old school. They just didn't have the Presbyterian church at that time.

So, why was he a bishop? Reformed theology has no place for "bishops". Why did he believe in the seven sacraments? Reformed theology does not have seven sacraments. Why did he believe in praying to the saints? Reformed theology does not allow praying to the saints. Why did he believe in purgatory? Why did he believe that Mary remained ever virgin? Why did he believe in Holy Orders through Apostolic succession? Need I go on? Why did he believe that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Christ? Need I go on? The Reformed churches reject all these things.

I said: "The fundamental point of difference on which all the others rest is 'sola scriptura'."

You replied: "I would disagree. The fundamental point rest upon who saves us-God (monergism) or man (synergism). The rest of the arguments are peripheral."

No. If the bishops truly have the authority to determine what the Church teaches, then whatever the sacred Magesterium determines is the correct doctrine viz-a-viz monergism is orthodoxy. Therefore, the fundamental point is not whether monergism is true or not, but whether 'sola scriptura' is true. For if the Magesterium has that authority, then you should submit to their authority, even regarding their teaching on monergism.

-A8

[HarleyD]

So, why was he a bishop?

He was part of the ONLY Christian Church at that time. He couldn't very easily pick and choose.

Why did he believe in the seven sacraments? Why did he believe in praying to the saints? etc.

Many of these fathers were coming out of pagan cultures. They were trying to formula a conceptual framework from scripture as God had revealed Himself. In some cases I believe Augustine simply picked and chose his battles.

BTW-I don't believe the fathers simply sat around saying, "Why Jerome, you have a spiffy idea on that thar view of the Eucharist". They went to the scripture to see what the scripture stated. I'm alway impressed by how much the fathers quote scripture considering the written text was probably rare and they didn't have high speed Internet connections. They got most of it right. A whole lot more than most of us I might add.

Why did he believe that Mary remained ever virgin?

So did Calvin and Luther. I believe they were wrong as well. It illustrates bias.

If the bishops truly have the authority to determine what the Church teaches, then whatever the sacred Magesterium determines is the correct doctrine viz-a-viz monergism is orthodoxy.

That would be true if you could unequivocally state that bishops are never wrong and are in total harmony. You can't. The best you can say is that they take a vote and whatever doctrine gets the most vote wins and we trust this was from the Holy Spirit. To me that is a poor way to run the salvation of your soul. You are responsible for your own salvation ("Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"). What happens when the bishops are wrong? Do you still submit to their authority? Do you think God excuses you because you are following a wayward priest? Or do you rebel against the priest?

The whole issue IS monergism verses synergism. If God saves you than you can trust Him to reveal His truth to you as long as you are truly leaning upon Him. The Son has set you free; free to depend upon the living God. Under your synergistic view of "free will", what you are saying is that man has a will but you must give up your "free will" and submit yourself to the Church. Talk about robots!

Augustine recognized the error right away after being approach, so much so that he was willing to destroy some of his life's work for the error it represented. So who would I submit to in my understanding, the Bishop Augustine or some local Bishop here? If the Church told me that Augustine's views on predestination is not the "official" teachings of the Church, so what? Does that make it wrong? Apparently at one time Augustine and Cyprian believed it.

Submitting to the "authority of a bishop" is simply a lame excuse to kowtow to the Church dating back to medieval times. It does not forgive our individual responsibilities before God for any erroneous doctrines we might hold. If the Church tells you tomorrow to drink from the cyanide-laced kool-aid, I would hope you would have enough common sense not to do it even though it goes again the teachings of the Church.