St. Peter and Rome

Catholic Exchange.com ^ | 11-15-04 | Amy Barragree

[William Terrell]

How were people saved before the Bible?

I believe Paul talked about this. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness. That is to say, Abraham had faith and belief in God. The second covenant that Jesus brought was salvation of faith and belief, as the law could only guide but not save.

Through this faith and belief of Abraham, his seed was given salvation from God and were to bring the law, which was to guide the people until the Messiah would come. Then, there were no distinction among men but only that of faith in the Gospels as brought by the Christ.

Salvation is the promise of those who believe and practice that belief in faith. It was said by Christ that all you need is faith the mass of a mustard seed and you can remove mountains and cast them into the sea. That was the promise to anyone who gained such faith.

It is a private and individual thing, requiring no organization.

[Uncle Chip]

Okay then, what should we call that group of theologians within the Church today that don't believe that Jesus will rule again on the throne of David in Jerusalem for a thousand years?

[Alamo-Girl]

In case you are interested, I'm awaiting a reply to a similar line of questioning over here . The link is to post 453 where I'm waiting for a reply. Note the last few paragraphs which "go to" the point you are making here.

Post 451 and 452 over there - as the above here - seem to indicate that the Sola Scriptura doctrine equates the words of God with the Word of God (John 1 and Rev 19) and more troubling, that the Scriptures are God.

That was an eye-opener for me and I await confirmation. If this is true, IMHO, it is the equivalent of worshipping the Creation which was spoken into being by God rather than God Himself. And it makes me wonder, if the Scriptures are God to these Christians, then why they do not react angrily when when the Bibles are mistreated (like the Islamists do.)

[Running On Empty]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't St. John write this:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the WORD WAS GOD.

So--in receiving Him, are we not receiving the WORD HIMSELF who is God? We are receiving Him, not just his word.

[Uncle Chip]

In receiving His words [Scriptures], the recipient is receiving Him.

[William Terrell]

How can writings possibly be God Himself, even if He Himself wrote them? They are immoble, static, fixed, not dynamic, creating universes as spoken.

[Alamo-Girl]

Exactly. That is why my jaw is still on the floor.

Thank you so much for your reply!

[jo kus]

Can you separate a man from his word? Can you separate Jesus from His word and receive Him without also receiving His word?

First of all, the Bible is NOT the entire Word of God. God is a person, not a book.

Secondly, I gave you Scripture to point out what gives us life. It is God HIMSELF, not the words He spoke.

And finally, those who have not heard the Bible being preached can still partake in the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit blows where HE wills, not based on your limiting judgment.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Romans 2:14-16

Accordingly, even some GENTILES have the law (of Love) written on their hearts as a result of the Spirit, Gentiles who had yet to hear (or perhaps never would) hear the formal Gospel proclaimed to them.

Thus, your claim that those without the Bible are without Christ is false. God is not bound to those who ONLY read the Bible.

Regards

[jo kus]

Post 451 and 452 over there - as the above here - seem to indicate that the Sola Scriptura doctrine equates the words of God with the Word of God (John 1 and Rev 19) and more troubling, that the Scriptures are God.

Oh dear... The Scriptures are God. I haven't heard that one before.

Regards

[Alamo-Girl]

I hadn't either, that one really broadsided me. If true, it explains a lot. But I am praying that is not what was meant.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Can you state for certain that the doctrine that we know as replacement theology, which allegorizes away the words of the prophets of the Old Testament, did not come down to us through Marcion?

You haven't proven anything except Marcion was a misguided heretic. He has nothing to do with understanding the Covenant of Grace.

"Theology" doesn't allegorize anything. Scripture does. Paul was very clear. All who call themselves Israel are not Israel. And I do not share the actual blood of Abraham, but I share the blood of Christ with him, and thus I am a child by the Promise, and not by some red corpuscle bloodline.

Marcion believed there was total discontinuity between Israel and the church, and between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He thus rejected the Old Testament as part of the canon of inspired Scripture for the church.

This is the antithesis of an amillennial or postmillennial approach to Scripture. As Van Til explains...

"This doctrine of the total depravity of man makes it plain that the moral consciousness of man as he is today cannot be the source of information about what is ideal good or about what is the standard of the good...It is this point particularly that makes it necessary for the Christian to maintain without any apology and without any concession that it is Scripture, and Scripture alone, in the light of which all moral questions must be answered. Scripture as an external revelation became necessary because of the sin of man. No man living can even put the moral problem as he ought to put it, or ask the moral questions as he ought to ask them, unless he does so in the light of Scripture. Man cannot of himself truly face the moral question, let alone answer it" -- Van Til, "Defense of the Faith" pg. 54

God gave the Jews the Covenant of works. And the Jews could not be saved by works. None of us can. Instead, those Jews who had faith were counted righteous and were saved.

The New Testament unfolds out of the Old to show us that works do not save anyone; that only faith in Jesus Christ saves whom God wills. But the faith He gave to both is exactly the same -- Jesus Christ. The "seed of Abraham" is Christ.

Dispensationalism: A Reformed Perspective

"...The fundamental difference between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism is this issue of Israel and the church.  Dispensationalism stresses the literal fulfillment of prophecy about Israel and posits an essential difference between physical Israel and the church.   If you have Dipensational friends who are discussing with you how you interpret Old Testament passages, and their fulfillment is seen in the New Covenant, almost always they will tell you something like this, "Well, I take the Bible literally and you are spiritualizing away these passages."  Now what they really mean by that is they take the term Israel, literally.  Now, everybody has to acknowledge symbolic elements in prophecy.  Anybody who has read dispensational interpretations of the book of Revelation will see that it is very clear that dispensationalists also have a very symbolic approach to the meaning of Scripture, but what they mean, whereas you think that these prophesies about Israel and Judah in the Old Testament are fulfilled in the church and in the coming in of the Gentiles into the church, we dispensationalists do not believe that the Church is prophesied about in the Old Testament.  And we believe that the prophesies about Israel and Judah in the Old Testament are to be literally fulfilled in Israel in Judah in the New Covenant...

Now, Covenant Theology on the other hand, sees the Church as the fulfillment of Israel in New Covenant prophecy.  Covenant Theology is happy to acknowledge the uniqueness of the Church, especially in its post Pentecost phase.  But Covenant Theology sees all believers in essential continuity.  There are not two peoples of God. There is one people of God..."

 

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Okay then, what should we call that group of theologians within the Church today that don't believe that Jesus will rule again on the throne of David in Jerusalem for a thousand years?

You call them Bible-believing, redeemed Christians who know for a fact that Christ rules today at the right hand of God in heaven.

[Uncle Chip]

Why do people who neither believe nor understand the Scriptures, quote and cite them as if they did?

[Lil Flower]

You have that backwards, my friend. Before there was ever a King James Bible, there was Christ. Before there was an Old Testament, there was Christ. If I have never seen or read a Bible, and yet I have Christ in my heart, I have His Word. It is written on my heart, the way God intended it. Earlier, some one pointed out to you that, say a mentally handicapped person who cannot read or comprehend what they are reading can still be a Christian, because if Christ is in their heart then so is his word.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"My view of the historical record is that the Roman edifice did not even begin until at least 200 years after Paul died."

The "Roman edifice" --- whatever you mean by that--- is really tangential. There is nothing magical, mystical, or even magisterial about the city of Rome, per se. All that could be put aside, Rome could be nuked to smithereens, and the successor of St. Peter could be a barefoot, blind fellow with a beggar's bowl wandering about Ravenna or Avignon or Aix la Chapelle (or Milwaukee or Rio) and still St. Peter's successor --- the beggar --- would be the pope.

This was determined by Jesus, not geography.

[Uncle Chip]

Did Paul know how to spell the word "church", and "Israel" or was he writing in some kind of secret code that only certain groups of interpreters are privy to?

[Uncle Chip]

And before there was a Jerome Latin Vulgate, there were old Latin Bibles, and Greek Bibles, and Syriac, . . . .

[Dr. Eckleburg]

In receiving His words [Scriptures], the recipient is receiving Him.

Amen. The work of the Holy Spirit is to preach the Redeemer through Scripture.

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." -- John 20:31

Unlike our RC FRiends who believe objects can by tangibly holy, the Bible is not a mystical relic, and no book and its pages are intrinsically, materialistically holy.

But the words on the page are holy because they are spoken by the Holy Spirit directly to the believer's heart.

And those with ears to hear, given by God alone, will hear and know their Savior.

[Lil Flower]

And before there was a Jerome Latin Vulgate, there were old Latin Bibles, and Greek Bibles, and Syriac, . . . .

Absolutely. Now that we agree on something, how about addressing the rest of my post.

[Uncle Chip]

Amen to that, Doc --- I couldn't have said it better.