Thanks for your wonderful reply.
I teach intro to psychology, currently.
Will have to get back to you later. Am at the college throwing bowls for the hospice sale in Dec. Am on a fruit salad break.
Later,
Thanks for your kind and humbling words. I enjoyed your post as well. If I'm not mistaken, I think I smell the fragbrance of The Breath of The Holy Spirit on your breath and words--At least a spirit and attitude that remind me of Him. God's best to you and yours.
I think a very important point is implied in your posts--theology and personal belief need to match up with the individuals experience of reality. If I understand you correctly, you’re pointing out the importance of being honest with ones self, of avoiding self-deception and hypocrisy.
YES! Those are priorities that I think are quite important for navigating reality in this time/space dimension as well as connecting meaningfully and fruitfully with God moment by moment as we live out our life and ministry here as well as the "working out our own Salvation with fear and tremblilng," as the KJV says.
I agree, if our spiritual beliefs do not match up with what is true, we have a problem. The call to faith contains within it a call to personal honesty.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Your perspective on the need for the Holy Spirit to lead the Church is also very important one, and I think you raise some obvious concerns about how Church organization and hierarchy function. I think that’s an area where dialog is very important. One of the reasons why we need unity within the Church is to ensure that such dialog takes place.
Thanks. Yes, I think it's difficult to impossible to overestimate the importance of insuring that hierarchy and organization are humbly submissive to Holy Spirit and that the tail never even remotely begins to think it can get away with wagging the dog,so to speak. However, I think that's difficult to impossible practically speaking in any human organizations unless and until the majority of the leaders in a given local and certainly over the whole organization are thoroughly,
THOROUGHLY, THOROUGHLY HUMBLE AND SUBMITTED TO THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS THE CHRIST AND THE GUIDANCE OF HIS SPIRIT, MOMENT BY MOMENT, DAY BY DAY.
OTHERWISE, the typical thing will happen as has happened for near 2,000 years . . . and as the pharisees demonstrated so vividly . . . finite humans will presume roles and perogatives exclusively intended for Holy Spirit in managing individuals and clusters of Believers. Then the rot has set in and the enemy is pleased to be running around managing congregations in white washed robes of presumed righteousness as deadly as can be.
If I understand you correctly, you have a commitment to a Charismatic understanding of the Church, one that is consistent with St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, chapters 12-14. These Scriptures contain an extraordinary teaching about the primacy of love in the Christian life, and in the life of the Church. They also describe the gifts of the spirit, including gifts such as prophesy and speaking in tongues. Views related to these gifts are often lacking and perhaps overlooked within the broader Church. One reason that unity is important is it creates the opportunity for collaboration and dialog among Christians with strong understandings of particular parts of Revelation. It’s a problem when the Church is segregated so that each faction is only describing one part of the Elephant to itself.
That's an interesting point. I think God is exceedingly grieved about all the disunity and fractional junk and factionalism; grandstanding in the name of organizations and human offices . . . even human presumptions about Scriptural offices.
Nevertheless, I do NOT believe that God would be remotely pleased to submit HIs Spirit nor His Church Universal to the strong-armed gerry manding; pontificating presumptions; parochial prissy-ness; monopolistic hogwash of ANY human organization--even IF He originally started such an organization--which I do not believe He did, at all. I believe He infected Believers with Himself and set them loose to be fruitful and multiply led most wholesale BY HIS SPIRIT. And that when humans attempt any other model than to loosely support one another in that--all manner of hellish fruit results--and virtually all of it stinks.
“I Corinthians 12-14 answers that question conclusively for all time in the Church age. The New Testament offers no better description of God's solution for that; God's plan and design for that.”
Yes, I still feel quite confident that's a true statement.
It sounds like what is being described in 1 Cor 12-14 contains many elements that one would expect to find in many Charismatic or Pentecostal Communities. Clearly there is a Biblical precedent for the style of worship. I’m not familiar with such communities, and would like to learn more about them, and am looking forward to hearing your views.
Thanks for your kind words. HOWEVER, Even in the groups, clusters, organizations which have typically BEST MANIFESTED SUCH--doing it by THE MANUAL seems to be a very fleeting thing. It seems to require earnest prayer and fasting and very earnest application of Scripture and Holy Spirit's leading to insure that the Anointing of God Almighty continues to flow in and through a given congregation or group.
And, EVEN IN THE RARE CASES WHERE the believers are willing to pay that price--a very rare thing, indeed--even then, God still seems to lead said congregation through dry spells where He is testing to see if the believers will SEEK HIM AND FOLLOW HIM instead of His Gifts and demonstrations of His Power and Majesty.
I think it's somewhat like a parent and earthly offspring. The parent loves Christmas probably more than the kids for the kids responses. But if the kids only light up for the gifts the parent gives and never for the parents themselves and for and because of who the parents are . . . then something is dreadfully wrong.
In my reading of Scripture; study of Christ's life; Paul's life; and observations of the best of congregational life in our era . . . as well as extensive prayerful pondering, I do NOT think that there are any pat answers.
But that's logical. Scripture and history are full of examples where the minute folks thought they'd seized on a pat theological answer, God had to mess it all ukp to require them TO AGAIN SEEK HIM AND HIM ALONE.
HE WANTS RELATIONSHIP--NOT A VENDING MACHINE; ROBOTIZED, COMPUTERIZED; FLOW-CHARTED--PLUGH THIS ACTION, RITUAL ETC. IN AND GET THIS BLESSING, THIS INDULGENCE ETC. OUT. Simple. And deadly. There's no life in such. It is RELIGION but it is NOT righteousness. It is not true spirituality. It is not LIFE. And it is certainly NOT JESUS CHRIST'S RESURRECTION LIFE ETERNAL. And that doesn't matter what organizational name the mothers of all presumptions are managed, acted out in.
It is also important to recognize, however, that these practices occur in a hierarchical organization, and it is an organization in which leaders use the charism of leadership to benefit and guide the community.
True. Though I think the best one I've ever known or observed--John Wimber--succeeded way above average because:
1. He was exceedingly and truly humble.
2. He truly sought to merely read Scripture; teach Scripture--
3. take it for what it said--AND
4. DO SCRIPTURE. Then--to
5. TRUST GOD to produce the results.
He was not greatly into organization and resisted wholesale pressures to make of THE VINEYARD a denomination. I think they eventually flirted briefly with such but then abandoned it evidently for good. And even now, the loose association of congragations still markedly bear the sweet fragrance of Wimber's original Holy Spirit humility.
Thankfully, God produced results uncommon any longer in a long list of traditional Pentecostal congregations and even a large number of more recent Charismatic congregations.
The rot has alaready set in though the Charismatic groups are not that old in historical terms.
The Epistles are instructions written by authorities to communities under their charge. For example, Paul admonishes the Corinthians in 1 Cor rather strongly, and it includes instructions to excommunicate two Christians living in an incestuous relationship. There is a also a biblically mandated imperative to obey rightfully established leaders. The discussion of the Church in 1 Corinthians 12-14 includes a description of the role of the gifts of the Spirit within the Church. It also important to recognize that it contains a description of the Eucharist immediately prior to this description in 1 Cor 11; 23-32. St Paul also instructs the Corinthians to maintain the traditions which he has passed on to them, either orally or in previous correspondence which we no longer have “Be imitators of me, even as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.” (1 Cor 11: 1,2.)
Sorry, I much prefer more journalistic paragraphing.
You said: "St Paul also instructs the Corinthians to maintain the traditions which he has passed on to them, either orally or in previous correspondence which we no longer have " I suspect God had HIS REASONS for insuring that correspondence was lost. God seems to be more than a little schizophrenic in a sense, about traditions.
Mostly, He seems to be against them, in wholesale terms. Those He seems to reserve for positive sanction are few and far between, in my reading of Scripture. And, the bulk of the renewed expression of said traditions seems to be reserved for after Armageddon or some such--in Heaven, the New Jerusalem etc.
Sure, we can call Baptism; The Lord's Supper etc. traditions . . . but I think of traditions as enough of a dirty word generally in God's eyes, that I don't usually call the sacraments a tradition.
EVEDN WHERE A TRADITIOIN was established, in a sense, by Holy Spirit--MAN'S OPERATIONS OF THE TRADITION QUICKLY TEND TO TAKE ON THE ROBES AND FLAVORS OF
A TRADITION OF MAN. And God will not share such glory with man--even in a formerly Godly tradition. So, I think that's one reason that God is mostly averse to traditions. And organizations ought to be very careful and even harsh about new traditions springing up and taking root. Because then, in short order, folks who kowtow to the tradition instead of submitting to GOD ALONE will presume themselves rightous by virtue of the traditions hoop jumping instead of by VIRTUE OF CHRIST'S BLOOD ALONE.
Now in your post you point out that leaders have often failed their flocks. No argument there, the authors of Scripture took great pains to point out that the Apostles failed the Church on numerous occasions. Nonetheless, there is still a Church, and the Apostles were still the rightful leaders of the Church. We cannot dismiss the authority given to the Church by Christ because of the failings of individual leaders anymore than we can dismiss the mission of the individuals within the Church because of failures on the part of those individuals who call themselves Christians.
Yes, the freedom to fail is a great Grace of Salvation in The Lord Jesus, The Christ.
However, The Church Universal, as I read Scripture and reflect on history, IS NOT TO BE a hierarchical, remotely authoritarian nor even sternly authoritative multi-layered pontifical edifice that makes, BY PRESUMED "VIRTUES" OF THE ORGANIZATION all the leaders and sheep kosher, safe, perfect enough to avoid making waves and especially to avoid causing the organization undue trouble.
Christ was quite a paradox on that score. He had due respect for proper authority--yet shredded all human authorities' hypocrisies; presumptions; interjecting themselves INAPPROPRIATELY between individuals and God etc. etc. etc. Nowadays, I think He mostly has tended to just walk off and take Holy Spirit with Him--leaving the leaders and organizations invovled to build up stinking piles of chaff as mountains of unglory to themselves.
Christ established a Church with the authority to determine what is and what is not authentic Christian belief.
No, I don't believe that. Christ left Holy Spirit to manage that--largely. Yeah, He called local congregations to make such anointed, prayerful, discerning, Holy Spirit led determinations . . . and with collective input . . . particularly from submitting one to another; confessing one to another and calling the most lowly wise old codgers to give their judgment.
But that's enormously different from a huge traditional fossilized human organizational edifice making pronouncements from towering intelelctual, pontifical, eccleastical heights to be condescendingly thrown down to and more often on top of the sheep at "the bottom." Christ died to abolish such RELIGIOSITY once and for all, imho. He came to grant direct access to God and to all that direct access implied--without any meddling on the part of anyone else and certainly on the part of any MAN'S TRADITIONS ORGANIZATION.
In fact, in my long experiences . . . the longest and most horrendous long dark nights of the soul in my spiritual walks have tended to result in large part because I presumed to meedle in the relationship between another believer and God. SURE, I PRESUMED I WAS GOD ORDAINED HELPING THE OTHER BELIEVER. But, in fact, I'd taken on some aspect of GOD ALONE'S ROLE. And He was very good at singing my tail feathers accordingly.
That is a prerogative that we see exercised repeatedly and emphatically in the New Testament. The Church of the New Testament also possesses and exercises the authority to excommunicate, to establish moral standards and church practice, and has a Sacramental function.
I disagree. A HUMAN ORGANIZATION WAS NOT GRANTED SUCH GOD-POWERS in the sense of an organization spanning across great geographies etc. LOCAL CONGREGATIONS WERE given such powers.
As to establishing moral standards, Scripture does that. Scripture also establishes more than sufficient sacramental functions. All else by any man; any group of men; any leadership or hierarchy are arrogant presumptions layering on top of WHAT GOD HAS DONE AND CALLED SUFFICIENT--CHAFF--HUMAN, FLAWED, CORRUPT, EXCESS, EXTRA, CHAFF. Wood, hay, stubble.
You bring very important points to the discussion with regards to the individual’s relationship to God, the necessity of love within the Church, and the necessity for the Church to submit to the Will of God.
Thanks. Only by God's Grace is anything I say of ahy fruitfulness, at all.
These are consistent with an organized and unified Church community, not opposed to it,
That depends . . . as follows.
since Christ himself founded a visible, cohesive and hierarchical Church.
No, I do not believe He did, at all in the sense that Romanists seem to construe it.
Any hierarchy described by Christ is extremely minimal. Certainly not umpteen layers deep. Further,
CHRIST TAKES GREAT PERSISTENT PAINS TO EMPHASIZE A LACK OF HEIRARCHY--SUBMITTING ONE TO ANOTHER; confessing sins one to another; exhorting one another daily; washing one another;s feet; . . . the list is rather extensive. Compared to the remotely hierarchical inferences possible from Christ's words, the NON-HIERARCHICAL EXHORTATIONS WIN HANDS DOWN. Clearly CHRIST HIMSELF minimized one and emphasized the other.
As St. Paul says “Now you are the Body of Christ, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, and speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all Apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.” (1 Cor 12: 27-30)
Wonderful Scripture . . . what was the point of it? That we are all members of one Body. And, that Holy Spirit distributes such giftings and offices AS HE WILL. That we are not to lord it over one another . . . That we are not to envy one another; That we are not to seek to have another's role but to walk confidently, humbly in our own role submitted earnestly to HOLY SPIRIT AS WE SERVE ONE ANOTHER! Doesn't sound like a multi-layered hierarchical edifice, to me, at all.
Thanks much for your kind tone. I hesitate to call it a teachable spirit because I'm not sure that's true. But it comes across similar to one, if not actually being one. And I appreciate that a lot. In any case, i respect you as a fellow believer in our Lord Jesus The Christ. God's best to you and your family. I'm blessed to dialogue with you.