Do you follow the Old Testament dietary laws? (No pork, shrimp, clams, oysters, lobster, etc.) (Leviticus 11)
KUSA: What exactly can Catholic laity do to affect the excommunication of a member of the clergy?
A8: Pray for the excommunicated person and attempt to persuade them to seek reconciliation with the Church.
KUSA: Why can't you do what the Bible says? 1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
A8: How is praying for the excommunicated person and trying to persuade him to seek reconciliation with the Church a case of failing to follow 1 Tim 5:19?
KSUA: What part of 1 Tim 5:19 says anything about reconciliation with a Church?
A8: You are the one who brought in 1 Tim 5:19 in response to my answer to your original question at the beginning of this dialogue.
Why can't you simply get together with your Catholic brethren and accuse a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, or Pope of committing evident sins?
You can. Why do you think you can't?
The Church was founded on the Holy Spirit, not the man Peter. Did you miss this verse? 1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed.
Why do you think that 1 Peter 5:1 nullifies Matt 16:18? Peter is indeed a fellow elder (and a fellow Apostle), but he also has a unique authority as shown more specifically in Matt 16:18, both as the rock on which the Church is built, and as the possessor of the keys.
What of the account of Mat 21:23-17? How did the people recognize John the Baptist as a prophet?
It is a moot point because the Old Covenant context and the New Covenant context are distinct. Now we have a Magesterium gifted with the "charism of truth" (to quote from Irenaeus). If we assume that that we must on our own as individuals (apart from the Magesterium) figure out who is 'anointed' or 'divinely inspired', we are loading a false claim into our methodology, namely, the false claim that "there is no Magesterium graced with the charism of truth".
Paul writes that the laity can accuse the clergy, to be careful when laying on of hands, etc. There had to be a clear standard for God to deal with us. Men are all sinful.
Catholicism believes and teaches all of this. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
-A8
figure out who is 'anointed' or 'divinely inspired'
= = = =
NO! NO! NO! NOT A "figuring out."
Once upon a time, God walked in the garden with Adam . . . then with Adam and Eve . . .
Once upon a later time, Christ died that such fellowship, dialogue, intimacy would be RESTORED.
Holy Spirit came to further that restoration . . .
It's a matter of TUNING IN TO WHAT GOD IS SAYING to the individual at the time . . . practicing LISTENING to HIS Voice . . . as He commands. The more one practices hearing and obeying, the more one hears and the better one hears. Relatively simple, actually.
It is very interesting that both Protestnts and Catholics immediately jump to the dietary laws when they discover a Christian follows God's Holy Law. Nobody ever says that adultery, theft, murder, honoring parents, or coveting are no longer sins.
A8: You are the one who brought in 1 Tim 5:19 in response to my answer to your original question at the beginning of this dialogue.
Yes, I brought up the sripture. Praying for someone is always a good idea. But why can't you tell me if you can accuse your clergy and kick them out of the church or not?
Why do you think that 1 Peter 5:1 nullifies Matt 16:18? Peter is indeed a fellow elder (and a fellow Apostle), but he also has a unique authority as shown more specifically in Matt 16:18, both as the rock on which the Church is built, and as the possessor of the keys.
Following your logic, Peter is Satan as well as the foundation of the church.
Mat 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
Now, are you telling me that Jesus put Satan in charge of the church?
You can. Why do you think you can't?
Ok, so what happens when laity accuse clergy of sin in the Catholic Church? Here is your answer.
It is a moot point because the Old Covenant context and the New Covenant context are distinct. Now we have a Magesterium gifted with the "charism of truth" (to quote from Irenaeus). If we assume that that we must on our own as individuals (apart from the Magesterium) figure out who is 'anointed' or 'divinely inspired', we are loading a false claim into our methodology, namely, the false claim that "there is no Magesterium graced with the charism of truth".
Where is the term Magesterium found in scripture? What scripture, what command of God tells us this? Who is Iraneus? Can you really tell me the sum of the scriptures is "trust the church, not the Word of God"?
Catholicism believes and teaches all of this. I'm not sure why you think otherwise.
1679 years of Church history.