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To: kerryusama04
And this verse right here shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the clergy can mess up and be corrected by laymen:

1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Catholics agree. But Catholics do not see this truth as incompatible with Heb 13:17. We recognize that our leaders are fallible, but we also recognize that God has appointed them, and that He wants us to obey them. The command to obey our leaders is not a blank check. Perhaps that is your worry (and it is an understandable and justified worry). But we have to fit both truths together, and neither reject Church authority nor turn into Catholic Borg [from Star Trek]. Protestantism has tended to reject Church authority altogether, as you can see clearly stated throughout this thread. On the other side, some Catholics have hushed up crimes and abuses because they failed to understand that our leaders are fallible.

The charism of truth provided in ordination is not an unqualified gift of infallibility; it is a *communal* gift, one that applies to the bishops as a whole (united throughout all time), and especially to the bishop of Rome speaking ex cathedra. Priests and bishops and even popes are, outside of those qualifications, fallible and flawed human persons.

We don't have to choose between deifying clergy and rejecting Church authority. That's a false dichotomy.

-A8

1,287 posted on 10/24/2006 10:45:54 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
Catholics agree. But Catholics do not see this truth as incompatible with Heb 13:17. We recognize that our leaders are fallible, but we also recognize that God has appointed them, and that He wants us to obey them. The command to obey our leaders is not a blank check. Perhaps that is your worry (and it is an understandable and justified worry). But we have to fit both truths together, and neither reject Church authority nor turn into Catholic Borg [from Star Trek]. Protestantism has tended to reject Church authority altogether, as you can see clearly stated throughout this thread. On the other side, some Catholics have hushed up crimes and abuses because they failed to understand that our leaders are fallible.

The standard set out by the Bible that Jesus allowed Himself to be judged by is the Law, not the church. When your church violates the Law, what course to you have to affect change? What exactly can Catholic laity do to affect the excommunication of a member of the clergy?

1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 1Pe 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 1Pe 5:3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Peter recognized that he was a "fellow elder" and that Christ is the Chief Elder.

Now, consider the verses below and tell me how they can be reconciled with the nature of the Catholic Church:

1Th 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 1Th 5:22 abstain from every form of evil.

Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

1,312 posted on 10/25/2006 7:49:39 AM PDT by kerryusama04 (Isa 8:20, Eze 22:26)
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