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To: William Terrell
If men that run the church fail the church fails

This is not what the scripture in Mt 16 says. Peter fails right in the next passage (by urging Christ to take on tempory powers without the Cross), yet the promise is there.

Because it is the only passage that could possibly, remotely lend credence to the church's claims of authority

The promise to uphold in heaven decisions of faith made on earth is a striking one. You cannot ignore it. But Peter's special role is apparent throughout the gospel: he receives the Keys alone, he is renamed in the tradition of the Old Testament patriarchs, he is charged to feed the sheep personally, and it is Peter who like Christ raises the dead (Acts 9) and who, -- contrary to your mistaken belief, -- converts the first gentile (Acts 11).

This [Luke 22:32] was a comfort of Jesus given to Peter. I fail to see how it has anything to do with the Catholic church, since Peter's work was for the Israelites

Christ's promise to Peter, on whom the Church was built, that he does not fail and confirm his brethren, i.e. the rest fo the Chruch, has everything to do with the Church. The notion that Peter had a ministry exclusive to the Jews is a counterscriptural fantasy, common to protestants who would not study the scripture.

show me any passage that condones praying to human beings, living or dead

There are many cases of intercession of living poople: the raising of Jayrus's daughter and of Lazarus come immediately to mind, and the miracle at Cana. This is all a prayer to saints is: the faithful asks a saint to pray for him to Christ.

Notice the phrase "contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned"?

Yes. Learned from whom? We learned our prayers from the Church.

Church fathers do no write scripture

Human authoriship of the gospel of Luke and John, the Apocalypse, and of most epistles is acknowledged in them. The passage in 2 Timothy calls the scripture known to Timothy since his childhood (that would include the books Luther banned) inspired by God (but not written by God) and "profitable". It also mentions that the profit accrues to "the man of God", i.e. member of the clergy, perhaps a bishop, which Timothy was. No Sole Scriptura there. Chapter and verse for the Sola Scriptura, please.

Where does the Corinthians passage I posted say "mortal sin"

It does not, but it speaks of worthiness to receive. The teaching of the Church explains that passage in the way I did to you: those burdened by mortal sin should come to confession and have the mortal sin absolved before they receive.

There no mention of a church anywhere in it, except that a "church" properly defined is simply a group of those who agree in their belief

The church is mentioned (please -- can't you read?) and two or three mentioned elsewhere, hence the "church" is there in the institutional, not contrived, sense of the word.

197 posted on 10/26/2006 9:26:29 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
Ah, well. Obviously, there is enough wiggle room in the scripture to gainsay any passage I cite, and vice versa.

Go your way. I'm done here.

198 posted on 10/26/2006 5:42:37 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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