Posted on 10/11/2006 9:29:49 AM PDT by Antioch
Before criticizing Pentecostal churches that draw Catholics as members, Catholic leaders should ask why their own parishes aren't meeting the needs of those who leave, the Vatican's top ecumenical representative said yesterday at Duquesne University. "Our response cannot be in the form of a polemical approach, leaving ourselves to condemn the activities of other groups," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Such an approach "is not constructive and could even be counter-productive," he said. While Cardinal Kasper is known for outreach to traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches, he said it is crucial to be engaged with a diverse global Pentecostal movement that now claims 600 million adherents. He spoke to an audience of about 225, including Bishop Paul Bradley, administrator of the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, Metropolitan Basil Schott of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Episcopal Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh and Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church of Johnstown.
(Excerpt) Read more at post-gazette.com ...
Personally, I'm pretty willing to take folks where they are and with however much they feel like disclosing. I used to dig relentlessly. And as a shrink, I'm very good at it.
But there are many reasons for sharing and not sharing . . . and that's OK. No one shares absolutely all with anyone. Rather impossible given time constraints.
It's possible that some of us don't speak up as much because there are others like you who can do it so much better. At least in my case I know it for sure.
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Perhaps. But well speaking is not righteousness.
You are the only you that there is. Your perspective, your heart, your understandings and feelings are unique and we'd be blessed and added to, if you shared more of them.
Certainly God likes to hear you. Who am I to question HIS judgment on the matter!
Guess my hazmat suit will have to do . . . the virtual one . . . in my mind. LOL.
Yeah, getting shredded for such a perspective is pretty standard SOP!
Slipping and sliding around; ignoring uncomfortable Biblical points is not impressive, to me.
I suppose that could be one way of acknowledging that Paul declared he would that ALL people speak in tongues.
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For crying out loud, Quix! Didn't you get it? It's greater to prophesize than to speak with tongues!
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True! And I wonder how much that's encouraged in the churches of the perspective presented so . . . persistently?
Still doesn't negate tongues! Just says "B" is better than "A." "A," tongues, still has it's place!
Those umpteen verses about tongues are not chaff. They are not meant to be ignored or reationalized away.
Me either, so stop doing it! ;-)
I think my Scripture postings and my responsiveness Scripturally is markedly ahead of . . . anyone else's on the thread so far.
Of course I can't speak for those in alternate realities.
Do ya now? Well, that's really humble of you.
Of course I can't speak for those in alternate realities.
Please Quix, speak for yourself.
Do ya now? Well, that's really humble of you.
= = = =
Thanks for noticing.
Dear Zionist Conspirator,
The problem is that you've adopted a way of thinking about this that's sort of a light switch approach. It's either all one thing or all another. On or off.
So, in your view, if someone doesn't accept a six-day literal creation, or if someone doesn't accept the concept that the Old Testament was dictated letter-for-letter by God, in Hebrew, then one is guilty of demythologizing the Bible "whole cloth."
I respect that you have a different view of the Old Testament than do Catholics (or even many fundamentalist Protestants), but that doesn't mean that our view equates with the Jesus Seminar folks.
sitetest
While you're at being so impressed with your Scriptual prowess, please give me Scriptural documentation for being "slain in the spirit."
True, but Paul does not say that we are to love one another by incorporating beliefs which contradict the catechism of the Catholic Church. Of the 30,000 plus Christian denominations, a sizable minority exist precisely as a reaction to the Church which Christ founded, and their various doctrines specifically deny Catholic truths.
Catholics owe things to God as well as to neighbor-we have to uphold the faith which is guided by the Church and protected by the Holy Spirit, and love others as well, be they Protestants, Jews, Muslims or atheists. There have ALWAYS been heresies, those additions or subtractions from the deposit of faith. The point of departure for Pentecostal/Charismatics and Catholics is not one of style, emotional exuberance in the institutional organization. It hinges on a singular point of doctrine:the nature and purpose of the Holy Spirit. No matter how you twist or turn it, Pentecostal/charismatic claims regarding the Holy Spirit represent a radical departure from Church teaching because it is rooted in Phenomenalism, Gnosticism and Protestantism.
Phenomenalism literally means any system of thought that has to do with appearances. It assumes that there is no knowledge other than that of phenomena-denial of the knowledge of substance in the metaphysical sense; or that all knowledge is phenomenal—denial of the thing-in-itself and assertion that all reality is directly or reflectively present to the consciousness. To the Pentecostal/Charismatic, one does not truly "know" God until one has experienced Him consciously, usually by some sensory experience (i.e. emotional, or physical as in the case of the glossolalia) of "His Spirit" at work in one. Spiritual experience thus overrules the 2000-year teaching of the magisterium in such matters such as ecumenism for example. To the Charismatics, the very presence today of phenomena supposedly identical to the true charismata present in the early Church ipso facto proves their "divine origin." The experience is what matters, not the discerning Catholic's legitimate questions, such as "Why the 2000-year lapse? Is this experience really the same as the phenomena described in Scripture? or Is ‘the Spirit’ leading us toward a more fully Catholic life or toward apostasy?
Gnosticism in its varying forms have plagued the Church through the centuries. Although they have differed in detail, the central proposition to all of them is the alleged existence of a "secret knowledge," or gnosis, which makes its possessors the true believers and, thus, the only ones really bound for heaven. Pentecostal/charismatic gnosis becomes the experience of God through the interior or exterior manifestations of "His Spirit," which makes those experiencing these strange phenomena the "true believers."
Given the Pentecostal/charismatics ecumenical beginnings, it's no surprise that their thinking is slanted markedly towards Protestantism, notably sola scriptura, or personal interpretation of scripture based on the "inspiration of the Holy Spirit." Charismatics dangerously position themselves toward a Protestant rejection of Tradition as a source of Revelation- a fatal cleaving away from the true Catholic position that the interpretation of Sacred Scripture belongs exclusively to the Church—which is truly led by the Holy Spirit—and not to the individual reader.
What then is the Catholic position on the Holy Spirit? The Catholic Church explains the presence of the Holy Spirit, using the words of Saint Augustine, “What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church” (catechism-797). Just as God created the body of Adam and then breathed life into it, so Christ forms his Mystical Body, and then, together with the Father, breathes life into it, making the Church a living being. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit were never understood to be individual, personal rewards for the apostles. The Holy Spirit descended on the first Pentecost to guide the Church and give it the strength to undergo the many sufferings it would have to face in the world. Thus, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit belong to the Church and are at the service of the Church.
Being a member of the body of Christ, the Church, is more than having membership in a club: you are a member like your arm is a member of you: a living part that works with you. God has a task in mind for each of us and God gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we need in order to do that work FOR the Church. The crucial point is this: the guidance of the Holy Spirit will never and can never lead one away from or against the guidance of the Church. Anything that takes us away from the Church, away from our prayers, away from the sacraments, cannot be the Holy Spirit, but must be rejected as a dangerous delusion. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Church, and we have a share in that Spirit because we are members of the Church. That is the ONLY reason we believe the Church is infallible in teaching us about the faith. Not because we think that popes or bishops, or even councils are perfect (they are human, and humans are fallible). We believe they are infallible because we know that they are guided by the Holy Spirit, who will not let the Church founded by Jesus Christ go astray. No matter how corrupt popes and bishops may be, and in the history of the Church they have been very corrupt indeed at times, and no matter how political some of the councils of the Church may seem, the Holy Spirit will not allow them to teach us something wrong about the faith.
As long as Charismatics don't leverage false ideas regarding the Holy Spirit to overtly teach heresy, they will likely survive as a community in the Church, but if certain trends in this movement are unchecked, the Holy Spirit will withdraw and the movement will schism.
Interesting.
Would have thought it was obvious.
I'm not aware that I have ANY particular spiritual prowess.
I'm much more at the level of the blind beggar. I once was blind, but now, I see.
There are some Scriptural precedents related to the question.
But, personally, I find the question far too similar to many asked by the pharisees.
Christ refused to answer most of those--leaving them to puzzle over the things He said and to dig out the truth therefrom. The truth is available to ALL SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN IT.
I'm learning that contentiousness will have to be it's own reward.
Holy Spirit is drawing all who truly seek God to Christ.
He has been leaving organizations and congregations increasingly wholesale for decades. He appears to be picking up the pace and the degree of wholesale leaving of organizations and groups to their own puffed-up notions.
Ecumunicism is satan's move to collect all religions into the globalists one world religion that will end up, as Scripture says, worshipping the world leader.
Holy Spirit is about collecting individuals out of all organizations and groups unto Christ Himself. Of course, folks focused on Christ and doing HIS WILL--REGARDLESS--will tend to be drawn also into fellowship with one another--regardless of their backgrounds, traditions, Scriptural ASSUMPTIONS, training, traditions of men etc.
No worship of man, man's systems, doctrines of man, doctrines of demons, doctrines of the flesh . . . even RELIGIOUS traditions built upon truly Biblical foundations . . . NONE will stand.
ALL THAT CAN BE SHAKEN WILL BE SHAKEN.
ALL systems of man will be shaken. All systems of man will fall. Only that which is daily, moment by moment led of Holy Spirit will stand.
Standing around defending any system of man without the oil of Holy Spirit in one's lamp will result in being left outside the door when the Bridegroom comes.
ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOT GOD.
DOCTRINE IS NOT GOD.
CUSTOMS ARE NOT GOD.
TRADITIONS ARE NOT GOD.
LINEAGE IS NOT GOD.
PSEUDO SPIRITUAL LINEAGE IS NOT GOD.
LINEAGES WHICH BEGAN TRULY SPIRITUAL BUT WHICH BECAME CONSUMED BY MAN'S WAYS, MAN'S ASSUMPTIONS, MAN'S CONTROL ARE CERTAINLY NOT GOD.
RELIGIOUS PRACTICES APART FROM GOD'S SPIRIT ARE NOT GOD AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD.
. . .
GOD ALONE IS GOD.
GOD ALONE IS WORTHY.
GOD ALONE IS TRUE.
GOD ALONE IS ETERNAL.
GOD ALONE IS PURE.
GOD ALONE IS LOVE.
GOD ALONE IS REDEEMER.
GOD ALONE IS PROTECTOR.
GOD ALONE IS LIFE.
GOD ALONE IS RELIABLE.
GOD ALONE IS DEPENDABLE.
. . .
Once upon a time in a galaxy far away and a matrix most manufactured . . .
was a bridegroom and a bride.
They had studied all their lives for their wedding.
They had dreamed all their lives of their wedding.
They had prepared all their lives for their wedding.
Finally, the year came. And the month came. And many preparations were finalized. Many were near finalized.
The invitations were sent.
EVERYTHING was kosher.
The newspaper was kosher.
The invitations type fonts were kosher.
The photographer was kosher.
The photos were kosher.
The ink was kosher.
The caligraphy was kosher.
The stamps were kosher.
The invitations were mailed on a kosher date with due kosher ceremony.
. . .
The final week arrived. All was insured and assured.
The wedding script was kosher.
The rehersal was well orchestrated and very kosher.
The wedding consultant was kosher and very polished.
The assistants were very kosher.
The rehersal dinner was very kosher.
The chef was very kosher--from a long line of kosher chef's all the way back to the chef for that galaxy's Adam and Eve's rehersal dinner.
The food was very kosher, all grown by kosher farmers totally in the Holy Land.
The jokes were all kosher.
The toasts were all kosher.
The pictures were all kosher.
The decorations were all kosher.
The tables were all kosher.
The waiters were all kosher.
The service was all kosher.
The tableware was all kosher.
The dinnerware was all kosher--of purest white material and purest gold decoration--all strictly and totally from the Holy Land.
The candles were all kosher.
The table clothes were all kosher woven totally by only kosher weavers all born and reared in the Holy Land.
A very kosher memorable time was had by all.
And the wedding day came.
The florist was kosher.
The flowers were all kosher.
The sanctuary was kosher.
The reigning wedding priest was kosher from a long line of kosher priests all the way back to Adam and Eve's wedding priest.
The guests were kosher.
The attendants were kosher.
Their clothing was kosher.
Their hairdo's were kosher.
Their jewelry was kosher.
Their watches were kosher and all set precisely.
Their skin was kosher and warmly, cleanly refreshed and eager.
The music was kosher.
The musicians were all kosher.
The instruments were all kosher.
The microphones were all kosher.
The amplifiers were all kosher.
The speakers were all kosher.
The ceremony was all kosher and went flawlessly.
The exit music was all kosher.
The exit was kosher.
The toss of the bride's flowers was very kosher.
The toss of the bride's garter was very kosher.
The reception was all kosher.
The gifts were all kosher.
The cake was all kosher.
The chatting was all kosher and went on and on and on and on and on.
The bridegroom kept looking at his watch. The bride kept chatting and chatting and chatting.
And chatting and chatting and chatting. All the guests and relatives had been chatted very kosherly up one side and down the other. All the memories had been kosherly relived.
And the bridegroom began tapping his foot.
And the bride chatted and chatted and chatted.
She asked for the video of the wedding to be played.
And the very kosher video was played and all the guests ooooo'd and ahhhhhh'd. And all was applauded kosherly.
And the bridegroom began tapping his fingers.
And the bride chatted and chatted and chatted.
It slowly dawned that the kosherness was polluted.
The bride was in love with the wedding.
The bridegroom was in love with the bride.
The bride was in love with the ceremony.
The bridegroom was in love with the bride.
The bride was in love with the pomp and circumstance.
The bridegroom was in love with the bride.
The bride was in love with appearances, with shadows, with signs and symbols--all quite kosher--to a degree--in their time and place.
The bridegroom was in love with the bride.
The bride was in love with the wedding system and hoopla.
The bridegroom was in love with the bride.
Their intimacy was shaken and shattered. It crashed and burned.
The bride had become consumed by the wedding.
The bridegroom loved the bride.
And, along the way, he found a bride who was and remained totally in love with HIM.
And they lived happily ever after. They had a grand wedding. But it was merely a bright spot along the way. It was a truly wonderful wedding. But it was merely the path to their wonderful eternal home.
The first path had become polluted and wrecked the whole intimate relationship concerned because the bride had become seduced by the organization, the ceremony, the pomp and circumstance, the wedding rules . . . .
But Holy Spirit led the bridegroom through the wreckage of the first wedding to a truly faithful and devoted bride and to their true Heavenly home.
And happy ever after was truly Heavenly.
Thank you for this bold proclamation In Christ Jesus.
Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.
Amen! Look up, your salvation draweth nigh!
HA!!
You're 'killing it and bringing it home.' Excellent!
I fully believe that the charism of tongues is a gift that the Holy Spirit gives to the Church then and now and in all ages.
My point is that it takes discernment to perceive the gift - again the central question seems to me on the Biblical evidence that the tongues described in Scripture are either understood by all present or are interpretable to all present by someone gifted with the discernment of tongues.
And it seems to me to be the case that what many people call speaking in tongues today is actually incomprehensible to all present and is not interpreted.
But when an anomaly pops up, sometimes curiosity gets the better of me.
When one considers that people reading this thread take what is said to heart and when one considers that the matter being discussed and taken to heart is something that affects ones eternal salvation, the credibility of the posters is of utmost importance.
If a poster speaks from the heart on a "witness" thread, it is extremely valuable for readers/listeners. However, if a witness is a pretender, it is important to know it (at least it is important for me).
In a psychiatric relationship, it is just the patient and the healer. But in a forum, there are others who are affected by what is said and those listening in attentively but not actively participating exercise an intense "due diligence" in determining whose witness is valuable/credible and whose is not.
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