Posted on 10/11/2006 9:29:49 AM PDT by Antioch
Before criticizing Pentecostal churches that draw Catholics as members, Catholic leaders should ask why their own parishes aren't meeting the needs of those who leave, the Vatican's top ecumenical representative said yesterday at Duquesne University. "Our response cannot be in the form of a polemical approach, leaving ourselves to condemn the activities of other groups," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Such an approach "is not constructive and could even be counter-productive," he said. While Cardinal Kasper is known for outreach to traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches, he said it is crucial to be engaged with a diverse global Pentecostal movement that now claims 600 million adherents. He spoke to an audience of about 225, including Bishop Paul Bradley, administrator of the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, Metropolitan Basil Schott of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, Episcopal Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh and Metropolitan Nicholas of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church of Johnstown.
(Excerpt) Read more at post-gazette.com ...
In other words, rather than teach the fullness of the Catholic faith, we should drop large chunks of it until it is approved by the world and everyone is happy. Thats not ecumenicism, it's capitulation, Kasper..
NO! Not at all.
There are many wonderful Charismatic Roman congregations vibrantly alive and richly Roman in beliefs and practices.
Knee jerk reactions often are not that functional.
Enthusiasm, emotionalism, volume, width of smiles or full pews is not a measure of Truth.
I've been to charismatic catholic gatherings and seen the enthusiasm there, but I still can't see how a Catholic can reconcile his faith with pentecostal theology, knowing how it came to pass in the '60s.
In 1967, a group of Catholics in Duquesne University in Pittsburgh attended a Protestant Pentecostal gathering. The Protestants (which Catholic doctrine holds possess no sacramental power), laid hands on the Catholics. These Catholics began babbling in "tongues" and claimed to be "filled to overflowing with the spirit" as a result. Now, don't the actions of these Catholics defy the 1917 Canon 1258 which states, "It is absolutely not licit for the faithful either to actively assist at or to take part in non-Catholic ceremonies?" Yet according to Charismatics, Catholics will be rewarded with a special influx of Holy Spirit if they thus violate their own Church law. Further, seeking holiness from members of non-Catholic sects defies Catholic teaching that neither salvation nor sanctity (holiness) is found in non-Catholic religions.
Catholic doctrine on the liturgy is clear: altars are not stages. Nonetheless, now we find a sizable minority of catholics preferring to be entertained, and indulging in emotional grandstanding and egocentrism regarding their imagined "gifts."
Good, traditional catholic parishes always have involved priests, study and prayer groups and extra-liturgical gatherings which exist to deepen one's understanding of their faith. My parish has a wonderful vibrant intellectual and theological program with none of this "A miracle every Wednesday night" stuff. There is nothing intrinsic in Pentecostalism which we need to borrow, and maudlin emotional displays in a rock-concert atmosphere doesn't help to understand the faith, IMHO.
I'm of the opinion that NO ONE ORGANIZATION
has a monopoly on 100% of God's spiritual truth.
That that are flaws in the doctrines of all groups, including the RC's.
It may be that those who think that their group contains 100% of God's truth will find plenty of rationalizations for flushing Charismatic, Pentecostal Biblical truths and practices.
Personally, I praise God for those Roman believers who walk in a greater fullness of God's Holy Spirit within the context of their congregations.
imho, far too many spiritual leaders AND spiritual followers major in minors and minor in majors. I do not believe that God will be applauding such practices of getting carts before horses etc.
Christ made abundantly clear the things that God ranked highest. imho, greater attention and practice should be given to THOSE things.
Walking in a greater fullness of God's Spirit enables me to do that . . . and I've observed, doing so enables many Roman believers as well as others to do so more of the time to a greater degree, too.
I think that's worth it. I believe God is of the same opinion.
Enthusiasm, emotionalism, volume, width of smiles or full pews is not a measure of Truth.
= = = =
I've not at all been impressed with what a lot of congregations--including a lot of Roman congregations have done with
THE BIBLICAL TRUTHS in I Corinthians 12-14.
. . . which has mostly been to ignore such Biblical truths or fight against them.
Implicit in the "charismatic renewal is the tacit assumption is that the Church —the Body of Christ —had "lost" a major part of the Faith while the Holy Ghost maintained that aspect in protestantism. Protestants, hence, were restoring to the Church her lost patrimony. No Catholic can accept this position because it contradicts two dogmas of the Faith: extra ecclesiam nulla salus —outside the Church, no salvation, and the indefectibility of the Church. Catholics must hold that the orthodoxy of any given practice or belief in the final analysis depends not on how one feels about it, or what the priest, the bishop, or even the pope–teaching as a private theologian–says about it; it depends, rather, on the Magesterium: the constant teaching of the popes and the councils throughout its 2000-year history which determines whether a particular belief is Catholic or not.
It is not possible to accomodate Charismatic phenomenalism, gnostic tendencies, protestantism and antiquarianism into Catholic dogma and doctrine and stil have a catholic faith.
It remains just possible . . .
if not probable or certain
that the RC church is wrong on those two doctrines.
The Pharisees of Jesus' earthly days were also from a long very kosher tradition and very definitely of the ONLY TRADITION sanctioned by God as having THE ONLY correct doctrinal positions about the relationship between God and man.
Yet, God Himself IN PERSON called them sons of satan.
All organizations inhabited and led by man are flawed.
All.
That includes Pentecostals, Charismatics, Calvinists, Arminians and RC's.
Some flaws are more serious than others.
Only Holy Spirit leads into all truth. And all humans so far follow that leading rather flawedly, this side of eternity, so far.
Majoring in minors and minoring in majors has been a most and favorite effective tool of satan for a long time.
RELIGIOUS doctrine has been a favorite tool of satan for a long time to keep folks focused on junk instead of on God.
Doctrine is not God.
Organizations are not God.
God alone is God.
HIS WORD alone IS TRUTH.
ALL FOLKS IN ALL CONGREGATIONS FOCUSING ON OTHER THAN GOD, THE RISEN CHRIST, GOD'S WILL AND PURPOSES FOR THEM . . .
are increasingly approaching a rather serious period of discipline, purifying, cleansing, refiner's fires.
A recent limited distribution prophetic doc has been making the rounds . . . one of the main points is that God has been testing spiritual/religious leaders. Now, He's testing the followers . . . and those following very askew leaders/groups will be scheduled for the same looming disciplines as the leaders.
GOD ALONE IS GOD.
DOCTRINE IS NOT GOD.
TRADITIONS ARE NOT GOD.
ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOT GOD.
CONGREGATIONS ARE NOT GOD.
PARTS OF EVEN CORRECT DOCTRINE ARE NOT GOD.
THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD IS IMPORTANT--WHILE LOVING GOD WHOLLY, OTHERS AS SELF AND DOING UNTO OTHERS--WILL COVER THE ESSENTIALS AND THEN SOME.
ALL THAT CAN BE SHAKEN WILL BE SHAKEN.
Recognizing Who God is AND WHEN AND HOW HE'S MOVING will become life and death issues for individuals as well as congregations and organizations.
I love the Assemblies of God. Was reared in them. But God showed me over a series of instructional communications/sessions that most all of the criticisms I'd acquired toward the Roman Church were also valid about the Assemblies of God.
Traditions can be the tail wagging the dog in virtually all human groups. Assumptions about THE TRUEST TRULY TRUE TRUTH can get calcified and fossilized in any group of much age--and is the case in the vast majority of older tradition groups--in at least a list of ways.
Roman believers who recognize God moving in Power and Might in this era and who MOVE WITH HIM--will be spared discipline and suffering others will endure or fall under. The same is true for Pentecostals, Calvinists and all the rest of the Christian groups.
Elijah, then Elisha were God's men for their hours, seasons, eras. Some recognized it. A lot of prophets of God's opposition did not. They suffered accordingly. Many such situations looming ahead will be even MORE dramatic than the tongues of fire that consumed the prophets of baal.
A huge divide is looming in Christendom. IT WILL NOT BE, on the whole, ALONG DENOMINATIONAL BOUNDARY LINES.
GOD WILL HAVE A PEOPLE out of virtually all groups and certainly out of all people groups. I will not be at all surprised to see some Mormons make Heaven because they have a heart to truly know God and have accepted or will accept Christ as their Redeemer.
Ba'Hai's are about as wrong as black rain can be in a long list of ways. But I wouldn't be surprised if some who truly seek truth about God call upon the Name of The Lord at a critical time and are saved.
The looming world government will consume all religious organizations into it's own solitary one. All.
All TRUE CHRISTIAN groups composed of true believers in all groups gleaned out from the midst of said groups will be driven underground. Yet, they will do very vivid and dramatic exploits against the forces of darkness by The Holy Spirit and the assist of a growing cloud of angel armies.
It will not matter what one's ancestral religious group has been at that point. It will not matter what pet doctrines are being jangled by what God is doing at that point. It will matter only what God is calling each individual to do and how much that individual cooperated, jumps wholly into what God is doing at that moment.
As the blind man said to the Pharisees . . . I once was blind, but now I see.
I was stunned on FR the last 24 hours to cautiously give some input that I felt was from Holy Spirit but wasn't absolutely certain about. My habit is to offer such and let those concerned prayerfully discern.
It turned out to be more fitting than I'd have imagined it might be. Evidently at least one FReeper was touched significantly at least by the caring involved and the fact that he'd told no one what was going on but another FReeper I'd had no contact with.
That sort of thing is incredibly minor though often with major impact.
I see myself currently as far more flawed than I'd like to be at this age of my Christian walk. But it is God's pleasure to use flawed critters in the process of cleaning them up, wiping their noses, butts and cleaning their ear wax out. Willing loving hearts seem to matter somehow in that.
I served with a precious Maryknoll Sister in China. She had a belief or two I'm sure the Pope would at least tsk tsk over. But she loved God and people and her Lord Jesus The Christ. Interestingly, she would share Communion with us--not as The Lord's Body and Blood from her perspective but as a commemoration of His Death and Resurrection. She asserted that a revered priest once told her that was no problem. She was still a rather devout Roman believer. She has since passed on. I expect to see her in Heaven.
Throughout the Old Testament as well as the New, God rather pointedly upset folks conventional religious notions about truth, about Himself and certainly about a relationship with Him.
We humans prefer sameness. We feel safer and more comfortable, on the whole, with sameness--especially in spiritual areas. And, thankfully, God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
But He expects growth and a variety of change in our relationship with Him and in us.
100% of the best saints I know, have learned to expect God to continually knock phoney props out from under them--whenever needed--which is usually annoyingly often.
And, it doesn't matter whether those props have been life-long true assists and valid supports in their Christian walk or not. IF the factor, aspect, part of their life has become a hindrance or detraction from the individual's walk with God, they are liable to be lopped off and thrown on the fire. That can include very valid Biblical things that their spouse or child or pastor are still blessed to continue to have as part of THEIR walk with God. And, vice versa can also be true.
I know an AoG congregation in NM wherein the head pastor appears to have a significant problem with pride. He was also abusive to an assistant pastor as well as operating in denial and evidently some serious distortions, if not out right lying. The former assistant pastor finally was persuaded and led of God to go and attempt to make things right.
The senior pastor would have none of it. As way turned to way, the congregation decided to sell their current building and property to a growing very Spirit-filled rather raucus congregation led by a couple that would jangle a lot of sensibilities in the South.
The pastor fudged on the guidelines the board gave him for managing the negotiations and the sale.
The short of it is, the congregation is probably down to less than half what it was. Many folks are more disillusioned with God than ever. The AoG congregation does not have a new place to meet and have not been able to start building a new space on their property as planned.
If the pastor does not repent, try to make things right and get his act together, I expect him to be gone--if not from the congregation, than from this life. I do not know whether the congregation will survive or not. And my great grand father started it.
God is not playing tiddldee winks. He's playing for keeps. And increasingly so in this END TIMES era.
Those 'on the beam' will be blessed, protected [though many martyred] and assisted to do GREAT EXPLOITS FOR GOD AND HIS KINGDOM.
Millions of others will be flushed because they have chosen the enemy or at best chaff instead of Their Risen Lord.
Some removed from this life may be taken out of the way to prevent further hindering of God's work though the individual MAY be saved eternally.
Many more will be in danger of hell-fire because they actively and deliberately rejected God and what He was doing.
What God will do with the more blatantly mixed case folks--the partially clueless, partially rebellious will likely be an individual, case-by-case thing. But there's a very huge danger that any partiality including true rebellion will decide the case in a dreadful direction.
The pharisees lost out wholesale with God and evidently joined their father the devil. They WERE the religious spiritual leaders
OF THE ONLY ORGANIZATION, CONGREGATION, GROUP OF DOCTRINE SANCTIONED AS KOSHER BY GOD.
. . . until HE found THEM very wanting.
Nailed it, IMHO.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
PTL.
May The Lord bring fruit from it for HIS USE.
Thx
"I think every Christian feels a kinship to some degree with other believers."
ALL Christians are COMMANDED TO love one another substantively and meaningfully. That is a direct command from Jesus. Those who promote docritinal divisions and diviseness Paul called immature Christians unable to have a mature, deeper understanding of the Christian faith.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Hmm.. he also called them heretics and schismatics.
"Hmm.. he also called them heretics and schismatics."
Don't take away or add to God's Word. That is heresy and false teaching of the highest order. These are Paul's words exactly:
I Corinthians 1
10 Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,* by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you should be in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you should be united in the same mind and the same purpose. 11For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters.* 12What I mean is that each of you says, ‘I belong to Paul’, or ‘I belong to Apollos’, or ‘I belong to Cephas’, or ‘I belong to Christ.’ 13Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God* that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize but to proclaim the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its power.
18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.’ 20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, 23but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.
26 Consider your own call, brothers and sisters:* not many of you were wise by human standards,* not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are, 29so that no one* might boast in the presence of God. 30He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31in order that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in* the Lord.’
I Corinthians 3:
3And so, brothers and sisters,* I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for solid food. Even now you are still not ready, 3for you are still of the flesh. For as long as there is jealousy and quarrelling among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving according to human inclinations? 4For when one says, ‘I belong to Paul’, and another, ‘I belong to Apollos’, are you not merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, as the Lord assigned to each. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8The one who plants and the one who waters have a common purpose, and each will receive wages according to the labour of each. 9For we are God’s servants, working together; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
THANKS.
Organizations are not God.
God alone is God.
HIS WORD alone IS TRUTH.
Well, no, and as a Latin Rite Catholic, I don't make any such arguments. I believe that doctrine, dogma, etc are the way to get to God - perhaps signposts to keep on Christ's narrow path.
My apologies. I should know better.
Please don't delete the entire post, as I was making a very important point (to me, at least).
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