Posted on 09/23/2006 5:59:13 PM PDT by hiho hiho
I think the idea was that if you change the church culture, go a little slower than has been done in some of the churches we're discussing. Not that it can't be done at all.
Small potatoes. You call this "dividing a megachurch"? The author should read history of 1054 and 1517. Now those were megachurches being divided!
Ambitious preachers, especially SBC preachers, have run hog wild to Warren's siren song social gospel of big numbers (people numbers and money numbers). They are ambitious (I think) to have what Warren has, huge numbers hearing them impart their oftentimes weekly Scripture milk feedings and ego trippings. - I had to leave a small SBC church over a year ago because of a great degree of this gung ho purpose drivel. I wasn't physically able to "attend" the pastor's "classes" and his wife's weekly classes to his satisfaction - so he proceeded to repeatedly lambast me from the pulpit about attendance. He somehow managed to mostly ignore the real sinful behavior in his sermons in the crowd amongst the perfect attenders, repeated drunkenness, shacking up couples, habitual liars (excused as "mental illness"). - He taught a class on Islam and I went and then his wife started making noises about yoga, journaling and visualization - and then gave us Warren's purpose driven life book for her next planned class. I finally just had to call it quits. Things just blew up at the end with it almost causing a divorce between me and my husband (who stayed on under that pastor's thumb for several more months after I left). It was sort of nightmarish in a way, at least to me. I was just amazed at how much control this guy had over that church while acting like the congregation had much say about things. He had been there over 15 yrs. and still there; takes about two thirds of the total church budget for his part time salary. I imagine he means well, but it was very harmful to us. Sort of felt a little bit control freakish sickish.
So, you reckon they went back home that night and turned back into committing their adultery? That's what repent means, to turn around and quit what you're doing.
Probably the lesson is that most people should find a church that is compatable with their own style of worship. If it means parting ways, do it sooner with fewer hard feelings.
The church we left 20 years ago is fighting that battle today. The hymnal music would have been replaced long ago, except that all the big money people are old, and they like it. So now they have traditional service, one modern service and a blended service. And nobody is happy.
Repent could also mean being sorry for past actions that are no longer done, but you suddenly realize they were wrong to do...
Ed
I have no idea what that Christian should do...
I don't really have a pressing need to figure out what's right in that situation, anyway, as I have never been married and when I do marry, it will be for life.
I do know of at least five Christians who have left their wives, or are considering it, knowing that there is no adultery on their spouse's part, they are simply unhappy in their marriage.
Ed
What's wrong with "I Am a Friend of God"? Has He not called us His friend? The song is totally scriptural.
re·pent [ ri pént ] (past and past participle re·pent·ed, present participle re·pent·ing, 3rd person present singular re·pents)
transitive and intransitive verb
Definition:
1. be sorry: to recognize the wrong in something you have done and be sorry about it
2. change ways: to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits
It is not true repentance to just be sorry, we must modify our behavior and change our ways. That is when God's glory is reflected in our lives and His holiness brings about fabulous changes within us.
That's right. If a person stole a thousand dollars from someone before they became a Christian, then they might wish to repay it. If a person was already a Christian and still sinned, then Christ has torn the vail that separated us from our Father in Heaven so that we can go directly to the Father in Heaven and ask forgiveness in the name of Christ who is our mediator, asking Him to let us know how we are to make amends for the sin.
My parents are CHristians and have been married for over 45 years and I swear they HATE each other. Well, maybe hate is a strong word, but they visibly torment each other and COMPLAIN endlessly about each other. They make cutting remarks about each other constantly. They have recently been talking about living in separate quarters. They've stayed unhappily married because of their Christian beliefs. I believe they would have both been so much happier people living apart. My dad was a verbally abusive alcoholic and my mom is now a negative and bitter woman.
"What's wrong with "I Am a Friend of God"? Has He not called us His friend? The song is totally scriptural."
Well, I'm no theologian, it just see,s like a song that a kindergardner would sing. It makes God seem like our pal Jake that we hang out with at McDonald's.
I don't think God views us that way, nor do I think we shopuld view God that way.
But, again, I am no theologian!
Ed
"Christ has torn the vail that separated us from our Father in Heaven so that we can go directly to the Father in Heaven and ask forgiveness in the name of Christ who is our mediator,"
That is exactly what I believe!
Ed
And if people want that kind of music, then yes, there should be a place for it.
Perhaps you need to send your parents a copy of your post. - A true Christian eventually should come to the place where they want TRUTH about themselves and all things.
Speaking from experience (42 yrs. married to the same man). Married couples, and especially long-time married couples, sometimes need a little bit of space from each other. A lot of the irritable behavior toward each other can come from simple physical illnesses (that tend to get worse as time and habit go on hand in hand). The everyday irritations and aggravations that go with simply dealing with the everyday humdrum and problems of modern life. - Their parents are beginning to pass away and they have to deal with the reality of that devastating loss, or else their surviving parents require a lot of help due to advanced age. Sex sometimes loses its luster after almost half a century with each other and the "Cosmopolitan" magazine idea that has been perpetuated that EVERYONE is having GREAT SEX EVERY DAY (except for us, of course) is a crock. Sometimes there is too much "togetherness" by habit when in reality couples need to go shopping and have lunch separate from each other once in a while.
Shoot. My husband and I sleep wherever in the house we want to sleep. We sleep together on our Select Comfort bed (a great investment for us), he sleeps upstairs when he wants to read half the night, I sometimes go up there and let him have the SC to himself, or sometimes I feel like sleeping in the sunroom on the back porch. - He and I have fussed and fought at times like cats and dogs, but I think either of us would have most likely fought like cats and dogs with ANYONE we were married to. We've been through thick and thin and back thick again together. My husband wasn't an alcoholic, but he could be verbally abusive - and so could I, though!
Don't be depressed about your parents. Life is complicated and not perfect, and we just need to love each other a lot!
I know people who have gone from one marriage into another and then another trying to find the "perfect" partner and "soulmate" and now who are sticking in their third or fourth marriage (and putting up with a lot worse than they had in their first marriage) simply because they are ashamed to bail out on another marriage.
Ideally, young people need to start out in PRAYER for the Lord to help them find the right mate for their life. Unfortunately, youth is wasted on the young and we tend to view life from the Cinderella fairy tale perspective when we are young.
The Song: "Friend Of God"
The Artist: Israel and New Breed
The Album: Live From Another Level (Integrity Gospel)
The Songwriter: Israel Houghton and Michael Gungor
Lyrics:
Who am I that You are mindful of me?
That You hear me when I call
Is it true that You are thinking of me?
How You love me it's amazing
(Chorus)
I am a friend of God, I am a friend of God
I am a friend of God, He calls me friend!
God Almighty, Lord of Glory
You have called me friend
(Repeat Chorus)
He calls me friend
He calls me friend...
Forging A Friendship With God
by Troy McIntosh
Finding true friendship is a blessing. To find someone who is willing to share both tears and laughter with you is a rarity. As believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, God himself has invested in a unique friendship with us. In the song "Friend of God" on Israel and New Breed's Live From Another Level project from 2004, writers Israel Houghton and Michael Gungor explore the friendship God has forged with His children. Let's take a closer look at the lyrics of this timeless song of worship.
"Who am I that You are mindful of me, that you hear me when I call?" - The Beginning of our Friendship
How did God begin this friendship with us? Our friendships usually begin through some sort of casual interaction. Meeting someone at school, sitting next to that sister in the alto section, or having something in common with the brother on the basketball court may lead to a new relationship. However, God’s decision to develop a relationship with man required infinitely more than casual contact. Psalms 8:4 and Hebrews 2: 5-6 reads, “What is man that thou art mindful of him, the Son of Man that you care for him?”
The psalmist’s question emphasizes the transcendent nature of God. In other words, God is holy and mighty —while we are common. So why is God concerned about the affairs of men? But the psalmist goes on to explain why God is uniquely concerned about men:
You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under His feet. (Hebrews 2:7-8, Psalms 8:5-6)
This prophetic passage points us directly to the Person of Jesus Christ. God the Father prepared a body for the Son. The Son took on flesh and became the Second Adam: the man Jesus Christ. Jesus lived this life as a man and was crowned with glory, honor and power (Romans 1:4, Heb. 10: 5-6, Psalms 8:5-6, John 1:14, I Pet. 3:22). As a result, God’s concern for mankind is unique because God himself has become a man! If God became an angel, He would be concerned with angels, but He did not become an angel. He decided to begin an intimate relationship with mankind although we were made a little lower than the angels. He decided to begin this friendship with us long before we were ever mindful of Him.
"I am a friend of God" - The Basis of our Friendship
So, we know God loved us and therefore decided to become a man, die on a cross and rise from the dead that we may know Him. But how do we access this friendship? In James 2:23 we read: "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness and he was called the friend of God.'"
We enter into this relationship with God through belief. Not by our works. Not even by our own effort, will or decision. No, it's strictly by grace through faith. Abraham simply believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. He then worked out his salvation through living a life governed by his belief in God. The great thing about this faith we have in Jesus Christ is that God is the one who grants it to us (Ephesians 2:8-9)! If the basis for our friendship was left up to us, we would never have a relationship with God, we would undoubtedly continue to reject God (Rom. 3:10-11). So first Christ began this friendship with us (incarnation, death and resurrection), then He provides us with what we need as the basis of our relationship —grace.
"God almighty, Lord of Glory, You have called me friend" - The Burden of His Friendship
We are offered a relationship of intimate friendship with He who was declared to be the Son of God with Power (Romans 1:4). But how are we to respond to this offer of intimacy? In the Gospel according to John, Chapter 15 verses 14-15 Jesus says, “You are my friends if you do whatever I command you.” As our Lord, Jesus has the authority to command us to live, walk and give in a manner that is consistent with His character.
Very often as believers we talk as if we are friends of God, but we live like we are friends with the world. In the chapter 4, verse 4 of his epistle, James rebukes us: "You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God" (James 4:4) While God has chosen us to be His friends, we can live as if we are friends with the world. He clearly expects us to respond to what He has done to call us and save us with obedience. Our obedience to Christ demonstrates that we are more than simply church-goers or believers in name only, but true disciples. By living a life of obedience in love, we demonstrate to others that we are friends with God almighty (John 15:17).
"It's Amazing!" - The Breadth of His Friendship
Knowledge breeds intimacy. Intimacy and trust can be damaged when friends keep secrets from one another. The intimacy of a marriage can be crushed when one or more partners keep secrets they are ashamed or embarrassed by. Lies or “half-truths” can damage the bond between two long-time friends. But Jesus’ friendship with us is characterized by full disclosure. During the days of His flesh, Christ revealed everything he learned from the Father to His disciples. In John 15:15 we read: "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends for everything that I have learned from my Father I have made known to you."
Christ has given us the best knowledge we could ever want from Him —the knowledge of the Father Himself! He hasn’t kept secrets from us, but has given us an intimate peek at the Father God. He generously gives us wisdom and He willingly reveals his mind and character to us (James 1:5, I Cor. 2:16). True friendship requires that friends know each other’s thoughts, desires and hopes. What an amazing Savior that He would show us Himself in such an intimate way!
"Is it true that you are thinking of me?" - The Brotherhood of His Friendship
Proverbs 17:17 reads, “A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.” You normally find out who your true friends are by the way they respond during trials. Jesus gives us the clearest example of Proverbs 17:17 in action. In the book of Hebrews we find this beautiful passage about the nature of our friendship with the Christ: "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil,… For He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God to make propitiation for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:14, 16-17)
By enduring suffering, Jesus was not only able to love us but identify with us. He understands our pain and suffering because in dying for us He experienced the most grueling pain and suffering anyone on earth has ever endured. Rather than avoiding the pain that came with manhood, He received it willingly to redeem and relate to us. He showed us the true meaning of friendship. (Hebrews 5:2-8) He was always our God, but He became our brother.
It really is amazing when we think of exactly how much Christ did to develop a relationship with his creation. It is unbelievable that God has called us into a deep, intimate relationship with himself. Let’s demonstrate our gratitude through loving as He loved, fully and unselfishly.
With regard to the original post, there is no "divide," but merely a relative handful of unfortunate people who value their personal opinions more than they should.
And with regard to the "Friend Of God" posts--as a Christian, the concept that I am, indeed, God's friend is hardly "simplistic" or "kindergarten" in nature. Matter of fact, what God did to bring those of us who are Christians to the point of being known as His friends is practically incomprehensible.
Often the simplest, most easily accessible Biblical statements are the ones whose simplicity is deceptive. An example? "Jesus loves me, this I know/For the Bible tells me so/Little ones to Him belong/They are weak, but He is strong!" The Biblical truth behind that little song is earth-shattering.
If you're curious, there is another perspective regarding what's going on at Bellevue: http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
--Mike
Contemprary or hymns. For your perusal: http://www.genevaopc.org/resources_html.asp?res_id=9
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