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To: topcat54; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
Well, not exactly. The only infallible record we have of Jesus's name is of the Greek Iesous. In fact no one knows for sure if His Hebrew/Aramaic name was Yehoshua or Yeshua or something else.

It's true that there is some debate about the pronunciation of Yeshua's Name, as the Greek Iesous can be used for either of two names. It is now generally accepted that Y'hoshua (Yoshua or Yehoshua, usually rendered Joshua in English) was the early Biblical pronunciation, but that the late Biblical name Yeshua (Jeshua) had come to replace it. Why? Simply because it was in the late Biblical period that the practice arose of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton or even its shortened version Yah. Since pronouncing the name Y'hoshua classically (Yah-ho-shu-ah) would require pronouncing the Ineffible, Yeshua was the variant in common use during the Second Temple period.

In addition, the existant Aramaic NTs that we have, the Old Syriac and Peshitta, use the equivalent Aramaic letters of yod-shin-vav-ayin, not yod-heh-vav-shin-ayin as we would expect if Yeshua's Name were commonly rendered Y'hoshua.

Mind you, if someone wants to use the older form of the name, I certainly have no objection. Yeshua was always understood to be exactly equivalent to Y'hoshua anyway. But that's why I believe that "Yeshua" is indeed the correct pronunciation.

Wikipedia has a nice series of articles on the issue. Start here and then hit all the links to get all sides of the debate.

This being the case there is no reason to believe that, for example, the apostle Paul -- a fluent Greek-speaker -- felt is necessary to transliterate the name of Jesus to Aramaic for his Greek-speaking audience and disciples.

Partially true, though there is some evidence that even many Greek believers insisted on pronouncing it correctly. (I'll have to see if I can dig up the article for you sometime.) But in any case, that's why I don't object to anyone saying Jesus or get caught up in the Sacred Name nonsense--if the Apostles had no problem with transliterating Yeshua's name to keep it from sounding like a girl's name to their Greek audience (by ending in an "ah" instead of a male "us"), then why should I object to my fellow believers doing the same?

But by the same time, why should my fellow believers get their undies in a wad that I deliberately choose to use Yeshua's original name out of respect and emphasis of His Jewishness as a matter of personal custom?

Obviously Paul and the other NT writers were not as hung up on the Hebrew name as folks in the modern day "Jewish roots" movement. They are just trying to be "more Jewish" than Paul. Or is it "Saul"?

They were also dealing with an entirely different set of circumstances than we are: They didn't have to deal with people mistaking Jewish men for Calvinists.

51 posted on 09/20/2006 2:22:47 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ladyinred
But by the same time, why should my fellow believers get their undies in a wad that I deliberately choose to use Yeshua's original name out of respect and emphasis of His Jewishness as a matter of personal custom?

Because the "respect" is misplaced and without warrant from the Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to keep Jesus "original Aramaic" name out of respect. If that were the case the God would have been more circumspect in actually recording the Aramaic form of that name for us in His infallible Word.

He did not. As you have admitted there is dispute about the original spelling. Not one with the authority of "thus saith the Lord" can tell us for sure.

This reminds me of the Roman Catholic doctrine of works of supererogation. In this case it is a form of "holiness" beyond what God asks for in His word. Jesus attacked the false pietists of His day.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

69 posted on 09/20/2006 7:05:43 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Buggman

It's true that there is some debate about the pronunciation of Yeshua's Name, as the Greek Iesous can be used for either of two names. It is now generally accepted that Y'hoshua (Yoshua or Yehoshua, usually rendered Joshua in English) was the early Biblical pronunciation, but that the late Biblical name Yeshua (Jeshua) had come to replace it. Why? Simply because it was in the late Biblical period that the practice arose of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton or even its shortened version Yah. Since pronouncing the name Y'hoshua classically (Yah-ho-shu-ah) would require pronouncing the Ineffible, Yeshua was the variant in common use during the Second Temple period.
= = = =

Works for me. Not that it's of any great theological consequence. But it's nice to see the evidence in such a logical, plausible way.

. . .

They were also dealing with an entirely different set of circumstances than we are: They didn't have to deal with people mistaking Jewish men for Calvinists.
= = = =

Nor did they have to deal with people mistaking straining at gnats and swallowing camels for theological truth.


84 posted on 09/21/2006 12:28:13 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Buggman
Simply because it was in the late Biblical period that the practice arose of not pronouncing the Tetragrammaton or even its shortened version Yah.

Which seems odd, since YHWH wanted us to use and call Him by Name.

Exodus 3 (JPS Tanach - 1917 - Divine Name Restored)
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.

Exodus 6
(2) And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him: 'I am YHWH; (3) and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name YHWH I made Me not known to them. (4) And I have also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their sojournings, wherein they sojourned.

Exodus 9
(13) And YHWH said unto Moses: 'Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him: Thus saith YHWH, the God of the Hebrews: Let My people go, that they may serve Me. (14) For I will this time send all My plagues upon thy person, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like Me in all the earth. (15) Surely now I had put forth My hand, and smitten thee and thy people with pestilence, and thou hadst been cut off from the earth. (16) But in very deed for this cause have I made thee to stand, to show thee My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth.


8034 Hebrew - shem {shame}
1)
name
a)
name
b)
reputation, fame, glory
c)
the Name (as designation of God)
d)
memorial, monument

2Ch 7:14
(14) if My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Jeremiah 23
(26) How long shall this be? Is it in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, and the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? (27) That think to cause My people to forget My name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.


Zechariah 13:9
(9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'YHWH is my God.'

These are just a couple of examples, but, it's clear that YHWH was concerned that people would forget His name. Oddly enough 'YHWH' is removed from most texts and the pagan god 'Baal' is left in.

141 posted on 09/23/2006 5:33:42 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny) (John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a MAN that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God:)
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To: Buggman; topcat54; William Terrell; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ...

Yeshua, Iesous,Y'hoshua,Yoshua,Yehoshua, or Joshua. The names chosen in the Bible are very often not arbitrary, but chosen to convey a message. The important thing is to discern that all these names convey a contaction of Jehovah Oshua or Jehovah Saves


448 posted on 09/30/2006 2:23:07 PM PDT by Fithal the Wise
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