I'm sorry, but I do not.
There is no command anywhere in the Bible for the church, Jews and gentiles together, to keep the ceremonial Mosaic law. To place such a requirement or suggestion on believers, particularly gentile believers, in the new covenant is a tradition of men. It's no different from the the rabbis who added to the law of the tithe by neglecting their own parents.
This is something that you cannot deal with in your analysis. There is neither explicit nor implicit notion of feast day keeping or kosher keeping among the gentile believers.
Unlike the matter of the change of sabbath where we have explicit NT examples of the church gathering for worship on the first day of the week, which you deny has any significance, e.g., Acts 20:7, we have not even one shred of kosher keeping or feast day keeping within the church. Not even a suggestion that such observances are to be kept voluntarily.
Not true. The Greeks and Romans considered Sabbath-keeping a sign of laziness,
Even if this were true, which no one is admitting, why would we think that this is the issue in Colossians when it is neither mentioned nor suggested in any of the language, yet on the other hand we have numerous warnings by Paul to the church regarding the judaizers and their desire to place the gentiles under the ceremonial law of Moses. And language Paul uses here fit with Judaism, not pagan Rome or Greece (see below).
Clearly you are inventing history to match your theology in order to understand the text. While a multitude of Scriptures exist regarding the judaizing tendencies by a sect within of the early church, nowhere does Paul take the church to task for these things which you suggest.
It is clear from Galatians and elsewhere that Paul was much more concerned with the mixing of law and the gospel than he was about whether or not gentile believers were considered lazy by the Romans.
"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." (Col. 2:13,14)
As Gill puts it:
God's book of remembrance of the sins of men, out of which they are blotted when pardoned; others, the book of conscience, which bears witness to every debt, to every violation and transgression of the law, which may be said to be blotted out, when pacified with an application of the blood and righteousness of Christ; rather with others it signifies the ceremonial law, which lay in divers ordinances and commands, and is what, the apostle afterwards speaks of more clearly and particularly; and may be called so, because submission to it was an acknowledgment both of the faith and guilt of sin; every washing was saying, that a man was polluted and unclean; and every sacrifice was signing a man's own guilt and condemnation, and testifying that he deserved to die as the creature did, which was offered in sacrifice: or rather the whole law of Moses is intended, which was the handwriting of God, and obliged to obedience to it, and to punishment in case of disobedience; and this the Jews call (bwx) (rjv) , "the writing of the debt", and is the very phrase the Syriac version uses here:Paul used the very phrase that the Jews used to specify their obligation to the Mosaic code to make it clear what the believers in Christ were freed from, not just gentiles, but both Jews and gentiles together.
I think the fundamental difference here your sect and the majority of Christianity is that you see Christianity merely as a sect of Judaism, that all of the ordinances peculiar to Israel in the land are still appropriate for the church of both Jews and gentiles. The difficulties with this view are numerous and insurmountable. E.g., you have to invent a new set of traditions for observing feast days in the same fashion as the apostate Jews did. While you whine about the explicit command authorizing the change of weekly sabbath from the last day to the first day, you cannot produce a single verse to authorized the keeping of ersatz new moons and feast days in the absence of a priesthood and temple. It is truly a double standard that I thought you might have picked up on by now.
Only by ignoring Scripture and inserting the traditions of the apostate rabbis in certain cases are you able to make the system hang together. Like the secret rapture theory of your dispensational friends, it is quite clear that no one on their own and come to these conclusions.
The common view has been that the church is the culmination of all that God had promised to father Abraham. Abraham's righteousness was counted to him while yet uncircumcised (Rom. 4:10). It is not Israel after the flesh, and we are not merely a sect of Judaism following modified traditions like the ancient Pharisees or modern Orthodox Jews.
Hebrews testifies loudly and often to the temporary and incomplete nature of the ceremonial law. It was a shadow, and Christ is the Substance. To embrace the shadow while the Substance stands in your midst is a denial of the new covenant.
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect." (Heb. 10:1)
"Year by year", new moon after new moon, festival after festival.
We are a new creation, the new Israel of God. We are a true spiritual commonwealth built on the simplicity of the gospel, and the simple gospel ordinances of baptism (not circumcision) and the Lord's Supper (not Passover).
"But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, 'If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?' " (Gal. 2:14)
Note how Paul equates this judaizing tendency even in Peter to be crooked, perverse and contrary to the "truth of the gospel". Now, are we to believe that Peter was really a judaizer at heart? Probably not. But Paul views even the slightest tendency in the direction of "law keeping" as an emblem of one's righteousness as a fundamental denial of the gospel.
... Up to that period the Church had remained like a virgin pure and uncorrupted: for, if there were any persons who were disposed to tamper with the wholesome rule of the preaching of salvation,11 they still lurked in some dark place of concealment or other. But, when the sacred band of apostles had in various ways closed their lives, and that generation of men to whom it had been vouchsafed to listen to the Godlike Wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then did the confederacy of godless error take its rise through the treachery of false teachers, who, seeing that none of the apostles any longer survived, at length attempted with bare and uplifted head to oppose the preaching of the truth by preaching "knowledge falsely so called."On my arrival at Rome, I drew up a list of the succession of bishops down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. To Anicetus succeeded Soter, and after him came Eleutherus. But in the case of every succession,14 and in every city, the state of affairs is in accordance with the teaching of the Law and of the Prophets and of the Lord....
Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching.15 Thebulis it was who, displeased because he was not made bishop, first began to corrupt her by stealth. . . . Each of these leaders in his own private and distinct capacity brought in his own private opinion. From these have come false Christs, false prophets, false apostles-men who have split up the one Church into parts16 through their corrupting doctrines, uttered in disparagement of God and of His Christ....
There is no command anywhere in the Bible for the church, Jews and gentiles together, to keep the ceremonial Mosaic law.
First of all, where in the Bible does the term "ceremonial law" or its equivalent appear? Or is this just an artificial distinction of your own making based on the traditions of men?
Unless you can show that the Bible makes a clear distinction, then the following verses prove that the whole Torah, moral and ceremonial, is still in effect:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:17-19)Now, to head off the inevitable arguments which you always bring in despite their having been refuted dozens of times over: Citing a transferrance (Gr. metatithemi, which means moved, not altered) of the priesthood to Yeshua does automatically result in the aborogation of the whole "ceremonial" Torah. Why not? Because many of the ceremonial aspects are independant of the Levitical priesthood:"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah. . . Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a (Nazrite) vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads (cf. Num. 6): and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Torah." (Acts 21:20, 24)
Do we then make void the Torah through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish (i.e., uphold) the Torah. (Rom. 3:1)
Therefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Rom. 7:12)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah. (I Jn. 3:4)
--The Sabbath was instituted at creation, and set into motion while Israel was yet in route to Sinai (Exo. 16:23ff) as well as in the Ten Commandments which were given well before the Levitical priesthood was set up (Exo. 20:8ff). If they did not need a functioning Levitical priesthood to observe the Sabbath, neither does the lack of a functioning priesthood aborogate it now.The best you can do against these facts is argue from silence: "Well, maybe those few things were still in effect, but nothing else was." Sorry, but that doesn't cut it in any debate. Given the evidence that the Apostolic Church maintained numerous specific ceremonial commands, and a complete lack of evidence that they ceased, we have to assume where we are not specifically told that they did not keep a certain commandment that they did.In addition, Sha'ul worships and teaches in the synagogues on the Sabbath in Acts 13:14, 27, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; and 18:4. Acts 13:42-44 specifically notes that the Gentiles came into the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear the Word of God which Sha'ul was preaching. Since the Jewish believers still considered themselves obligated to keep the Torah (per Acts 21), then if the Gentiles and Jews were worshipping together, it would have to be on the Sabbath, not Sunday. Having the Gentiles worship on Sunday would've created a split in the Church, not the unity that the Apostles were striving for.
--Passover was likewise instituted well before the creation of the priesthood, and as others here have pointed out. Moreover, as I've repeatedly pointed out without refutation of any substance, Sha'ul commands keeping the feast of Passover in 1 Co. 5:7f. Indeed, the entirety of the Lord's Supper was originally meant to take place within the context of the Passover Seder.
--As already noted at length in this thread, each of the Feastdays had commands associated with them apart from the sacrificial offerings. On the Feast of Trumpets, we can still have a rest-day and a holy convocation and hear the sound of the shofar together, whether or not we are in Jerusalem--indeed, Yom Teruah isn't even a pilgrimate Feast, so it was expected that most would celebrate it in their home synagogues.
--Sha'ul is eager to return to Jerusalem for Shavuot (Pentecost), a pilgrimage Feast (Acts 20:16). Why would it matter if he was no longer keeping it?
--The zealousness of the Jerusalem believers for the Torah extended to taking voluntary Nazrite oaths and offering the proper sacrifices at the end of them. One poster (was it you or Harley?) objected that there is no indication that this was a regular practice. Not so! The fact that there were already four men under a Nazrite vow when Sha'ul arrived (Acts 21:23), the fact that Sha'ul had previously taken such a vow on his journey (18:18), and the early tradition that Ya'akov (James) himself took a lifelong Nazrite vow (cf. Alfred Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services, [Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1997], p. 242, quoted here) indicates that the Apostolic Church believed that the "ceremonial" law of the Nazrite vow was also still in effect.
--Indeed, the first Messianic Jews, including the Apostles, "continu[ed] daily with one accord in the Temple" (Acts 2:46). Worshipping in the Temple meant taking part in, at least by assent, the sacrifices and other "ceremonial" parts of the Torah which you would claim were done away with at the Cross.
--As previously noted, the entire institution of baptism was adapted from the Jewish proselyte mikveh, even down to the specific symbolism. Clearly, they didn't think that the "ceremonial law" in this instance (which was actually a tradition drawn out from the Torah, not actually a command of the Torah itself, interestingly) had not passed in this instance. This is driven home by the fact that the expenses that those under a Nazrite vow incurred to shave their heads (cf. Acts 21:24) were those of offering multiple animal sacrifices (Num. 6:14ff).
Therefore, the NT Biblical record clearly supports that the Apostolic Church maintained the "ceremonial" laws of the Torah, your blanket and unsubstantiated dismissals notwithstanding. It is true that they did not impose them on the Gentile converts as a prerequisite for fellowship, but neither is there any evidence that they forbade Gentiles from keeping the whole Torah either, except in the context of becoming circumcised (becoming fully Jewish). The reason why they forbade circumcision is given in detail in my response to ET here. And in the specific matter of the Passover, Sha'ul definitely commands that it be kept--and if the Gentiles were expected to observe the Passover even away from Jerusalem, why not the other Feasts as well?
Right now, you've been reduced to arguing that it is "a tradition of men" that Gentiles keep the Feastdays of the Lord. Oh really? So, in your church, have you provided Sabbath services so that your Jewish members may keep the Torah? Have you provided services for the Feastdays so that Jewish believers may keep the Torah? Have you made it a point to serve only kosher meats at public functions so that Jewish believers may keep the Torah?
If not, then you are guilty of one or both of two sins: 1) You have created a middle wall of separation that makes it impossible for a Messianic Jew to worship with your congregation (i.e., you've essentially said, "Genties only"), or 2) you have discouraged Jews from "staying circumcised" (staying Jewish) and led them to disobey 1 Co. 7:18 as a precondition for fellowship--the opposite and equally evil sin of that of the Judaizers.
Even if keeping the "ceremonial" Torah is only for the Jews (which I dispute--the Lord told His Jewish disciples to teach the Gentiles to do everything which He had commanded them to do, which would include the whole Torah, Mat. 28:20 and 5:17-19; but for the sake of argument), then you are obligated to provide the means for the circumcised members of your congregation to keep the Torah. And if there is truly no more wall of separation, no more Jew or Gentile, then you should take joy in celebrating the Feasts along with your Jewish brethren.
The ball's back in your court. Your entire argument hinges on the thesis that the "ceremonial" Torah is Biblically separate from the "moral" Torah and that the former is done away with. Even if the "ceremonial" Torah is for Jews only, you are still obligated to provide the means for Jewish believers in your congregation to keep it--and if you are not doing so, you have violated the Word of God in favor of a tradition of men and no longer have the right to complain about anyone else's traditions.
If you cannot prove your thesis, then all the rest of your arguments collapse like the house of cards that they are.
Also, note that you have yet to provide a Biblical passage that directly and unequivocably moves the Sabbath. Which means you long ago lost this debate, and simply have not had the honesty to admit it.
And now, I'm off to have dinner with my brother, and I've got prison ministry tomorrow. This will probably be my last post to this thread, as I'll be putting up the Yom Kippur thread shortly. Goodnight, and God bless.
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
Mar 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mar 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
Mar 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Luk 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luk 6:6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
Luk 6:7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
Luk 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Luk 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Joh 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was a high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Here is every reference to the first day in the NT, KJV
(Mat 26:17) Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
(Mat 28:1) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
(Mar 14:12) And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
(Mar 16:2) And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun.
(Mar 16:9) Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
(Luk 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
(Joh 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.
(Joh 20:19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
(Act 20:7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
(Act 20:18) And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
(1Co 16:2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
(Phi 1:5) For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Now, please tell me where anyone commands a switch.