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To: topcat54; XeniaSt; Dr. Eckleburg
Well, the information seems to be accurate as far as it goes, which is more that can be said for the source quoted by XeniaSt.

It wasn't entirely incorrect, just incomplete. Wikipedia is a good place to start, but you shouldn't assume that just because it doesn't mention something or is in conflict with another source that the other source is wrong.

I'm still trying to figure out how all those folks got immersed out in the wilderness of Sinai.

God made a river, remember?

But we are not talking about conversions to Judaism. There were apparently many aspects of the mikveh that have no relationship to the baptismal rites of the Christian church.

The correlation is close enough that I think we can say definitively that the Christian Church--indeed, Yeshua Himself--adopted the tradition and modified it to suit His teachings, investing that which was known to the Jews with a new meaning, much as He did the tradition of having wine at the Passover dinner.

That a curious way of putting it, and of course there is nothing in the text to suggest that's what he was thinking.

On the other hand, there's a great deal of rabbinical literature that shows that this is the way students queried their masters: By asking rhetorical questions that let the master expand on his thought without the hint of being challenged.

The term "born again" or "born anew" seems to be somewhat fluid, according to Edersheim

Stern also notes the different uses of "born again" in his Jewish New Testament Commentary. He goes on to show that none applied to Nicodemus, which is why he asked the question that he did. I didn't get into the variant meanings simply because I'm at work and couldn't remember them all off the top of my head.

They don't change my point, however: "Born again" was specifically used of Jewish proselytes centuries before Yeshua invested the phrase with new meaning, and the mikvah portion of the proselytization ceremony was directly borrowed by nacent Christianity from Judaism, even down to the very symbolism that it held.

353 posted on 09/27/2006 12:43:20 PM PDT by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Buggman; XeniaSt; Dr. Eckleburg
God made a river, remember?

Refresh my memory. And while you are at it can you show me where God commanded the children of Israel through Moses to immerse themselves before approaching the mountain? Or is there some other Sinai encounter I'm supposed to be referencing?

On the other hand, there's a great deal of rabbinical literature that shows that this is the way students queried their masters:

But that still does not account for the suggestion that either he or Jesus had proselyte baptism in mind in this discussion. That hint is not in the text.

They don't change my point, however: "Born again" was specifically used of Jewish proselytes centuries before Yeshua invested the phrase with new meaning,

Proselytes and many other things. There is nothing definitive in the text to suggest which of these idea Jesus had in mind. Baptism per se is certainly not in view. To saw that bapstim of all the association with "born again" is the correct answer is beyond what the Scriptures teach.

355 posted on 09/27/2006 2:12:29 PM PDT by topcat54
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