To: topcat54; HarleyD; xzins; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Corin Stormhands; ...
"The claim is easy to make. The hard part is backing it up with actual quotes from these folks that can reasonably be read "dispensationally"
Try these for starters.
Irenaeus 177 AD
Against Heresies 1.10 - What the church believes: One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His future manifestation from heaven.
Against Heresies 3.11 - Montanists set at nought the gift of the Spirit, which in the latter times has been, by the good pleasure of the Father, poured out upon the human race, do not admit that aspect of the evangelical dispensation presented by John's Gospel, in which the Lord promised that He would send the Paraclete (John 16); but set aside at once both the Gospel and the prophetic Spirit.
Against Heresies 3.15 - Jesus and the Father are the only true God. Jesus gave Moses the dispensation of the Law, of Christ, of the church, of the day of the Lord ...)
Against Heresies 5.8 - In the dispensation of Law the clean animals represented spiritual man and the unclean animals represented the carnal man.
Against Heresies 5.32 - Some of the orthodox are ignorant of God's dispensations.
Tertullian 210 AD
Marcion 4.12 - Jesus annulled the Sabbath.
Marcion 5.2 - Galatians proves the Mosaic Law is fully abolished.
Marcion 5.11 - 1 Corinthians, the veil of Moses refers to the complete doing away with the old dispensation. Christ being messiah and abrogation of Moses Law.
Jews 1.3 - Circumcision was temporary.
Jews 1.4 - Sabbath was temporary.
Jews 1.5 - Sacrifices were temporary.
Marcion 1.20 - Paul in Galatians means the Law given by god then fulfilled and done away with in Christ. Not that it was given by another god.
Origen 230 AD
OFP 1:2:1 - Teaches there are many dispensations
The problem the post mils and amils are having is that you are focusing only one one aspect of Dispensationalism, the pretrib rapture of the church and then you highlight some of the excesses like the wrong prophecies of the rapture while down playing the fact that you say He came "spiritually" in 70 A.D. which is just as fanciful and impossible to prove.
To: blue-duncan; topcat54; xzins; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Corin Stormhands
The problem the post mils and amils are having is that you are focusing only one one aspect of Dispensationalism Then let's take another aspect of Dispensationalism-the reign of Christ. While some of our dispensational friends would like to say the early church fathers were dispensationalists, none of their writings support the belief that Christ is not presently reigning on earth. Even Irenaeus, who everyone seem so fond of throwing out as a dispensationalist, believed Christ was presently and actively reigning.
For it is He who has power from the Father over all things, since He is the Word of God, and very man, communicating with invisible beings after the manner of the intellect, and appointing a law observable to the outward senses, that all things should continue each in its own order; and He reigns manifestly over things visible and pertaining to men; and brings in just judgment and worthy upon all; as David also, clearly pointing to this, says, "Our God shall openly come, and will not keep silence." - Irenaeus, Book 1
B-D, would YOU agree that Christ is reigning as King over the universe or, do you believe as our Pre-dispensationlist friends do that Christ is waiting for some "future" event in time to reign?
58 posted on
09/12/2006 2:13:23 AM PDT by
HarleyD
("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luk 24:45)
To: blue-duncan; Buggman; Alamo
Excellent post. It is clear that irenaeus liked the word "dispensation." I noticed it myself.
I suspect, since it's a bible word, that there have been others in church history who have used the word itself or synonymous language for the same.
A dispensation is simply "God acting with humanity a specific way in a particular era."
Garden of Eden, Ante-diluvian, Law, Grace, Millennium, New Heavens/New Earth.....these seem to be obvious candidates.
59 posted on
09/12/2006 2:20:26 AM PDT by
xzins
(Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
To: blue-duncan; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; DAVEY CROCKETT; Dr. Eckleburg; ladyinred
What is uniquely dispensational in any of these points from the chruch fathers? Or, better yet, how did the church fathers apply the "literal" hermeneutics of modern dispensationalism to arrive at their conclusions?
E.g., Tertullian 210 AD Marcion 4.12 - Jesus annulled the Sabbath.
The Christian church, for 2000 years, has believed that Jesus annulled the seventh day sabbath of the Jewish economy. There have been pockets of adventists and others that have taught otherwise, but they were a distinct minority.
Or are you merely confusing the use of the word "dispensation" with "dispensationalism". It's a common problem. That why I have chosen to use the term "economy" rather than "dispensation". They convey the same biblical thought.
I also find it amusing that Origen gets included in your list. Isn't he the notorious allegorizer that "literalist" dispensationalists are often railing against? If Origen came to his "dispensational" conclusions by applying an allegorizing method of viewing Scripture, do you really want to count him in your group?
68 posted on
09/12/2006 5:47:47 AM PDT by
topcat54
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