Posted on 09/07/2006 11:32:47 PM PDT by Salvation
That's an interesting view of Mary, thank you.
God said "Do this, but do not do this:
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
You may fool each other into justifying your statues, but you won't fool God, or me...
We're asking a good woman who's now in heaven with Jesus to pray for us. We're not talking to a statue!
Good gracious, this whole issue was hashed out over 1200 years ago. Are you familiar with the Seventh Ecumenical Council?
It was held in Nicea, Asia Minor in 787. It centered around the use of icons in the Church. The Iconoclasts ("icon-smashers")demanded that the Church rid itself of religious art. The iconophilles ("Icon-lovers") believed that icons preserve the doctrinal teachings of the Church and express the divine through art and beauty.
After much debate, the Council issued this Poclamation:
"We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos ("Mother of God"), those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people.
"Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype (the reality which they represent.) We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor ("timitiki proskynisis"), but not of real worship ("latreia"), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature."
This is the teaching of the Church.
1 Timothy 3:15
"...you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Don't worry about others fooling you or God. Worry about fooling yourself.
Do you take this to mean that all sculpture whatsoever is forbidden? Or is it that worshipping and adoring a creature instead of the Creator is forbidden?
It's internally contradictory --- it makes no sense --- to claim that Catholic/Orthodox Christians have been worshipping Mary as a goddess since the days of the catacombs, BUT that we have denied it and lied about what we're doing for 1900+ years! What possible motivation could we have?
So where does the Bible teach sola scriptura? If nowhere, then what is the significance of something not being found in Scripture, especially it is part of the Tradition?
-A8
Why not pray to The Father through The Son as instructed in The Bible? Again, nowhere in The Bible does it advocate praying to anyone else. The Ten Commandments specifically state to NOT make and bow to or pray to any image.
Are you saying that Jesus does not hear your prayers unless you ask through someone else? What's the point of praying to anyone else but GOD?
>>>Why not pray to The Father through The Son as instructed in The Bible? Again, nowhere in The Bible does it advocate praying to anyone else. The Ten Commandments specifically state to NOT make and bow to or pray to any image.<<<
But nowhere in the Bible is the Canon of Scripture described in detail! Hmmmmmmmm. By whose Authority is your Bible assembled? Or can you cite me Scripture and verse of the books of the Canon?
F
Paul is asking, urging, praying that we intercede for each other. Do you think that the saints in heaven no longer do this? Is it that they don't love us anymore? Or that they can no longer talk to God?
Do you disavow the making or use of any graven image?
I was looking at a website...I believe the name was MaryPages.com...Nice site...Put together real well with Ava Maria playing in the background...
The fella who owns the site has a page for Prayers to Mary...I looked some of those over and I was dumbfounded...I understand that you guys don't feel you worship Mary but I'm going to type in some of the things I read...
One prayer under the title of 'Prayer to Our Lady of Good Council'...And it contained this:
Obtain for me, through the Precious Blood of Your Divine Son, the forgiveness of my sins, the salvation of my soul, and the means necessary to obtain it...
Another one included:
Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished. May I, too, be saved...
And another:
I venerate You, O Great Queen, and thank you for all of the graces you have obtained for me, especially for having delivered me from Hell, which I have so often deserved. I place all my hopes and my salvation in you.
Now looking at these thru my eyes, I'd say you guys are counting on Mary as your Savior instead of Jesus...
What say you???
Reading comprehension is fundamental.
Paul said to follow the traditions that he preached...But, to avoid the traditions of men...In my view, your church doesn't sound a whole lot like what Paul had in mind...And Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (as opposed to Jews)...
Even your first pope wouldn't let anyone bow down before him, let alone kiss his hand...Now that doesn't sound at all like your pope Benedict, does it???
Even your first pope wouldn't let anyone bow down before him, let alone kiss his hand...Now that doesn't sound at all like your pope Benedict, does it???
Once you understood the *authority* of the Magesterium and the Tradition, then your objections above fall apart.
-A8
Reading comprehension is fundamental.
No kidding...You ought to try it sometime...
(Mary), obtain for me...
What, she going to sprinkle you with it??? The blood fell on the ground...It wasn't the blood...It was the 'shedding' of the blood...It was the death, the sacrifice...
How's Mary going to obtain salvation FOR YOU because her son died, and his blood ran out???
If your trusting Mary to get your salvation for you from someone else, you didn't get saved...
LOL! I can't imagine acting all the time like a discontent on threads like this one.
Discuss the issues, don't make it personal.
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