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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; TomSmedley
One of the things the protestant grammatical-historical method allows for is the background of the writers. So, we understand that the way Luke would tell the story, based on the fact of his gentile audience and not being an eye witness to the events, may very well be different from the way Matthew relates the events. So the protestant interpreter is OK with the fact that Luke breaks the narrative up in the way he relates the material. Their theology does not force them to regard the narratives as describing two (or more) different events separated by thousands of years.

That probably is not satisfactory for "literalists" whose operative principle is to break the Bible up into atomic parts and deal with them separately. This they do under belief they are "rightly dividing the word". What they really end up doing is to divide the program and purpose of God through all eternity which has always been to bring people to Jesus Christ nad incorporate them into His one true body. This is the grave deficiency of dispensationalism. This is what dispensationalism has been formally rejected by mnost reformed denominations, becuase it seek to continues to divide the people of God along racial lines.

And why does the [Orthodox Presbyterian Church] regard dispensationalism as a serious error? In the main because it is contrary to the biblical doctrine of the covenant.

The Bible teaches two covenants: the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. In the Covenant of Works God created mankind under one federal head -- Adam. Romans 5:12 tells us that when Adam sinned all mankind descending from him by natural generation sinned in him and fell with him. The Covenant of Grace was instituted to deliver out of those under the curse of Adam's sin a new humanity with a new head -- Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:13-19 compares and contrasts the two covenants and their results through the actions of their heads: Adam brought sin and misery leading to death; Christ brought redemption from that sin and its curse leading to life.

This is also taught in 1 Corinthians 15, the great chapter on the resurrection of Christ leading to the resurrection of His people. Notice that in verse 22 we are told that all who die, die in Adam, and all who are made alive are made alive in Christ. Later, verses 45-49 again deal with the relation between the two covenant heads and the contrast between them. "Adam" in Hebrew means "man." In vs. 47 the first man was surely Adam, made from earth (Genesis 2:7); the second man was Christ, "the Lord from heaven."

We all were born in Adam (except Jesus who was virgin-born, and not by natural generation). By way of contrast, 2 Corinthians 5:17 says that "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (or a new creation)...." This is the heart of the Scripture teaching.

Old Testament covenants, we believe, are but administrations of the one covenant of grace. Even the book of Hebrews, which exalts the contrast between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant, does not utterly divide them. In chapter 11:39 & 40: "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." Add to that Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile]...; for we are all one in Christ Jesus."

Dispensationalism divides what God has put together. It is difficult to define dispensationalism precisely because, especially after the demise of the original Schofield Reference Bible, dispensationalists have differed in many ways. The core of dispensationalism, however, continues to be that the OT people of God are distinct from the NT church.

And, though modern dispensationalists admit that the OT people are saved by the grace of Christ's cross (and that is good!), yet God's dealing with them is on the basis of law-keeping rather than grace. Whether there be seven dispensations (as Scofield taught) or but two, as some hold today, the separation between Jew and Gentile is deep and bordering on the absolute. That's what makes them distinguish between the church and Israel, saying that the church is not in the Old Testament. But I say, how can one make that claim when the book of Isaiah is full of prophecies of the church?

I don't want to overstate the issue, but I think the principal issue between us is their emphasis that Law is predominant in the OT and Grace in the NT. But there is great grace in the Old Testament, and law is not ignored in the New. Romans 3:19-20 clearly says that the Law doesn't save, but Law is the servant of grace because, "by the law is the knowledge of sin." Then follows that great passage on justification. Then notice that, in chapter 4, the Apostle attributes justifying faith to Abraham!

Just one more thing: All dispensationalists justify building their millennial belief on their interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. From this passage they claim two coming resurrections from the dead -- the righteous at the second coming and the wicked in Revelation 20:11-15. They completely ignore two things: Revelation 20 teaches that ALL the dead are raised at one time (cf. John 5:28-29), and Paul's teaching on the resurrection in 1 Thessalonians carries over into chapter 5:1-11.

The Apostle goes on in the next chapter to describe anything but a "secret rapture"! Furthermore, the Apostle's reason for not mentioning the resurrection of the wicked in chapter 4 was the question as to the present condition of the believing dead in vs. 13. He ends that portion with words of comfort in vs. 18. But continuing his teaching on the second coming of Christ, he ends that segment in chapter 5 in vs. 11: "Therefore encourage one another...."

This has been a long answer. I could have shortened it with answers without Scriptural support, but speaking for the OPC requires more that saying why and where we differ with other believers. I feel obliged to ground our convictions in Scripture, for, without that, we merely spout opinions! And one Word from God is better than a thousand opinions.

In saying this, we in the OPC do not pass judgment on our dispensational brothers. Our differences are honest differences; but if their hope is in Christ and Christ alone, we rejoice with them in a seeking and saving God.

Orthodox Presbyterian Church Question and Answer


726 posted on 09/08/2006 8:33:08 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Big excerpt against dispensationalism....and in my view, 2 covenants recognize at least 2 dispensations. Different subject, different time.

In any case, Luke was well aware of the information at hand. He chose to put it together the way he did. He did not put it together the way that you did.

I'll trust Luke. You method suggests that Luke was wrong about sequence.

729 posted on 09/08/2006 9:24:22 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: topcat54; 1000 silverlings
Great explanation from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, tc. Thanks.
733 posted on 09/08/2006 10:48:20 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: topcat54
In saying this, we in the OPC do not pass judgment on our dispensational brothers. Our differences are honest differences; but if their hope is in Christ and Christ alone, we rejoice with them in a seeking and saving God.

Amen to that, Brother! You and I have a different perspective, on scripture. I don't know how many passages of scripture we disagree on, but I know it is substantial, in fact, if we look closely at the details, we may disagree on all passages. It is that disagreement that forces us to search the scripture. I suspect God knew that would happen. That said, here is my take on one of your points:

From this passage they claim two coming resurrections from the dead -- the righteous at the second coming and the wicked in Revelation 20:11-15. They completely ignore two things: Revelation 20 teaches that ALL the dead are raised at one time

Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There are many arguments that I can see here, but I will point out just two. First, those standing before God are referred as the "Dead." Now I don't know if I have a good definition of resurrection, but according to my definition, this is not a resurrection. Just as Abraham and the rich man had not been resurrected when they had their conversation.

Second, I know that there is nothing I can do to improve or diminish my standing before God, it is established in Christ. Here we have the "Dead" being judged according to their works. How frightening to be judged by our works.

Do I have problems with this viewpoint? Of course, I am aware that scripture speaks of a resurrection of damnation. But if I exchange my viewpoint for yours, I simply have a new set of questions to deal with.

Back to the Scriptures

Seven

735 posted on 09/08/2006 11:03:02 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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