Posted on 08/28/2006 8:44:01 PM PDT by Quix
This book is excellent. It speaks to thoughts, feelings, facts I've long had strong similar to identical convictions about.
Excerpts from Dr Laura's Foreword:
" . . . sold more than one million copies of [I] The Proper Care And Feeding of Husbands [/I]"
. . .
"I expected a huge, ugly backlash. . . . the general public--especially the men--was incredibly receptive. What touched me the most was the sad, pained, resigned letters I received from so many nice men who were suffering deeply. These men explained that while they were deeply in love with their wives, those wives were literally on a countdown: When the kids were all grown and gone, the men were going to leave as well. Why? Because they were abused and neglected. The abuse did not take the form of physical violence; it was much more subtle nagging, criticism, berating, demeaning, dismissing, and rejecting that has become commonplace in American marriages where men are looked upon as side dishes, not the main course."
" . . . When Gloria Steinem enthusiastically proclaimed that 'Women need men like fish need a bicycle,' more than one generation of women was sent in the wrong direction in their search for love, security, bonding, and the joy of a quality marriage. Instead, women's organizations support behaviors that leave women alone and men designated as unimportant: unmarried sex as entertainment, shacking up without a commitment (marriage), single-mothering as a choice, abortions as birth control, no-fault divorce at will, men as oppressors or predators, and so forth. I often ask these women what they intend to say to their male children about their importance in this brave new female-oriented world. They don't have an answer."
"Because we hardly raise men to be anything masculine anymore, we have at least two generations of men who have no clue what it means to be a 'man.' Hence too many guys are, as I have lamented many times on my radio program, [I] males [/I] instead of [I] men. [/I]"
". . . Today's males have had their innate urge to provide and protect removed from their spines, guts, heads, hearts and souls."
". . . .The whole blame, in their minds, is on the men! Unbelievable! When I bring to their attention that for every step of the way (unmarried sex, all birth control has risk, living together without marriage, no spiritual center to their relationships) they were complicit, they get angry with me. It seems that women have been trained to have 'no rules' but still blame men when things don't go as their fantasies would lead them."
. . . .
"The bottom line is that men are blamed for their own and women's misbehaviors. Somehow that doesn't seem to be thmentality you'd expect from groups that espouse 'empowering' women."
" . . . It's clear to me that there isn't a consensus on what 'being a man' means. Women give mixed, confused signals and messages because women are basically confused between what they're being indoctrinated to want and what they really want. Clint Easwood, Keanu Reeves, Kevin Costner, Russell Crowe, Denzel Washington, and others are examples of strong, primal animal men. Women are drawn to such strength (epitomized by the high-school bad boys) because biologically, women are drawn to men who can provide and protect so that they can be safe raising their babies. . . . "
". . . . I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind men that they are [I] men [/I], and that this designation is not about biology; it is about strength, will, honor, courage, leadership, sacrifice, compassion, and love."
- - - -
Quote at the beginning of chapter 1:
"The ordinary man is passive . . . . Against major events he is as helpless as against the elements. So far from endeavoring to influence the future, he simply lies down and lets things happen to him.
--George Orwell
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Chap 1:
"WHat do you think would happen if Jesus were to appear at your church next Sunday and say to people what he says in the Bible?
'Hypocrites!'
'White-washed tombs.'
'Fools!'
'Dull.'
And 'a brood of vipers fit for hell!'
Given how [I] nice [/I] the church expects Christian men to be, I think we'd rush the pulpit and wrest the microphone from his hand. 'Tsk, tsk, tsk,' we'd mutter scornfully. We'd wag our fingers, reminding him of the supreme importance placed on manners and appearances in this holy place. Some women, reaching for soap bars to wash out his mouth, would recite our unofficial church motto: 'If you don't have anything nice to say, Jesus, don't say it at all.' [I] He really should be ashamed of himself.'"
"Shame is big in the church. Helps keep guys in line. Keeps their heads down. Keeps them humble. Supposedly."
"Actually, without shame, guys might be able to live the vital life God intended. This world would be a lot better.
"Instead, we have [I] passive, naive Christian Nice Guys.] [/I] We sit next to them in church all the time, not realizing their identity is being squashed, their will being broken, the lives of those who love and depend upon them being diminished as well. Everyone loses when we follow a false ideal."
". . . . Many sermons we hear are designed to make Jesus appear [I] always [/I] approachable, [I] always [/I] calm, and [I] endlessly [/I] patient. That's fiction . . . this mild Jesus has more to do with EAstern mysticism than with the gospel record. He did [I] not [/I] remain 'above it all,' emotionally hovering above us silly little humans. He got down in the muck and mire of life with us. He really lived; he really felt ey-watering joy and soul-crushing pain. He didn't assume the Lotus, drinking tea and finding us mildly amusing while trying to clear his head of conflict and division. Jesus, the dissident, brought the world both--the kind of conflict and division needed to shake things up for our own good."
"I created my own sanitized, unauthorized translation, [I] The Nice Guy Bible (NGB), [/I] which I continue to see a lot of other guys carrying around. I rewrote some parts and took others out of context to hide from God and from what he really wanted of me. I kept this distortion of Jesus neatly in my mind, the way a Nice Guy feels he should, until it was destroyed by an unusual and unexpected epiphany: Christ's humor. His blessed sarcasm helped me begin to see how he [I] actually [/I] lived and talked, as opposed to how I'd thought. A mental fog lifted. At last my life received a long-needed clarity. I neared the red-hot bonfire of truth, which warmed and saved me. A greater taste for life awakened."
. . . .
"Bill Hybels says that passive christians repel non-Christians from the faith:
[Hybels quote]:
I've learned through the years that seekers are not impressed with spinelessness . . . . Most of the time, seekers . . . . respect and admire christians who aren't afraid to take a stand . . .
Let me say it once more: Seekers have little respect for weak Christians. Deep down they're looking for somebody--anybody--to step up and proclaim the truth and then to live it boldly. (Becoming a Contagious Christian, 63-64)
- - - - -
"The convincing, repetitive message of my inherent worthlessness helped lay waste to my life in disasterous ways, stealing my passion, energy, and resources, and churning my gut, which is where resentment and anxiety live. . . . "
. . .
“The church told me to worry more about sin tan purpose, more about keeping up with appearances than searching for and embracing meaning. More about what I shouldn’t do than what should do. More about being nice than being good. Fear of failure, of falling short, of trying, but not being perfect, has us paralyzed, immobile, and,eventually indifferent. “
“Fear-based religiosity creates dangerous tension that ruins marriages, careers, children—sometimes even our souls. We [I] should [/I] avoid sin, for many reasons—that it separates us from God and from life are atop my list. [I] But so does the immobile life. It’s just harder to diagnose.” [/I]
. . . .
“Another who has noted the perplexing prevalence of Christian male passivity is theologian R. C. Sproul, who says,
‘When I became a Christian, I understood tha Jesus took my sin away. What I never heard from Him was that He intended to take my backbone away.’”
“ ‘Nice’ can’t confront this world’s sources of pain. Niceness makes people agreeable, not good. Somehow we have mistaken niceness for righteousness.”
. . . .
“The meaning of the word [I] nice [/I] is as unreliable as the people it describes. Today it is synonymous with ‘pleasant’ and ‘agreeable,’ but it has also meant ‘effeminate,’ ‘unmanly,’ ‘unable to endure much,’ ‘dainty,’ ‘reluctant,’ ‘ignorant,’ and ‘difficult to please.’ Nevertheless, remarkably, Christian men can be shunned in church and home if they are not unfailingly pleasant, agreeable, and in possession of impeccable manners. These attributes of niceness are taken to be expressions of a Spirit-filled life, yet none of these words or concepts are biblically mentioned as part of the Spirit’s fruit.”
“Besides, the mind of a Christian Nice Guy is anything but pleasant or agreeable. For reasons explained later, these men are often secretive and manipulative. They harbor hissing resentments, and, given all the games they feel they need to play just to survive, their wives ([I] If [/I] they can hold on to a wife) may come to question their own sanity. Though they inwardly exhaust themselves in their determination to hide it, they are easily irritated and frustrated. When nasty behavior surfaces, they may mistakenly or dismissively explain it away as the result of testosterone fluctuation or work place preoccupation. They may label it a kind of male menopause, which is the trend today, or give it a name like Irritable Male Syndrome, which largely ignores a profound spiritual component.”
“Appearances are deceiving, as this wife of a CNG laments:”
“Before we were married, he did all types of things to prove he handled issues. Two weeks after the wedding, off came the gloves. And he told me under no circumstances am I to open my mouth. I barely made it through the first year. I have struggled to stay married to him. . . . “
“His attitudes, mood swings, explosive screaming fits, all the things he has held in, all come out . . . .My husband tells me all the time he is just a Nice Guy. He isn’t, and he isn’t nice to be married to, either.”
There’s a 25 item quiz one can consider to measure their degree of likelihood of being a CNG. It’s worth prayerfully pondering. It’s on pages 21-22.
Coughlin covers Christ’s humorous and biting sarcasm very illuminatingly, refreshingly.
And, he adds on pp44-45:
“Nice, tame, spiritually arrogant people often don’t get or appreciate sarcasm because it disrupts the status quo. [I] Sarcasm bothers them because it stimulates the necessary work of self-criticism, a cornerstone of moral credibility.” [/I]
“But blessed sarcasm does help the weak and needy. Said one subscriber to Hartman’s site [Christian humor site]: ‘I struggle with severe chronic depression. Sometimes the only way I can get going in the morning is by reading your jokes. I just wanted you to know someone appreciates what you do. Christ loves him, you and me enough to wield the mighty and poignant sword of sarcasm.”
He has good chapters on masculinity; working with, in and ministering in and out of one’s passion; and how to have a healthy humor, sarcasm, fierceness after the pattern of Christ.
I think this is a very timely and crucial book. I think it’s one that most every Christian man would profit from reading. Thankfully, those who love them would profit from the men applying their new knowledge and insights in their relationships and lives.
He cautions about jumping off the deep-end with this end of the spectrum, too. I think he has written a very balanced and Biblical book that goes a long way toward correcting a lot of misconstrued constructions on Christianity and about Christ.
I strongly recommend it to any and every thoughtful Christian man. Women could also gain fruitful insights into their men.
Thanks much.
You're already on.
This subject of acting like a man instead of a wuss is rich ore for the church to mine. Our culture has left a big gaping wound out there, due to this "gentle, meek and mild" expectation of men. What a magnet to draw these hurting relationships into the Kingdom.
= = = =
Very well put and AMEN!
Feminism helped cause men not to see what their proper role, their God-given role in life is. They try to be 'nice' but nice doesn't cut it. They need to be MALES as well and be what God created them to be.
> Prayers for her son and for her ministry are in order.
Prayers going up, for both.
I can appreciate that Dr Laura is on "our side" -- I just don't agree with her premise, that:
> "...we hardly raise men to be anything masculine anymore, we have at least two generations of men who have no clue what it means to be a 'man.' Hence too many guys are, as I have lamented many times on my radio program, males instead of men."
She needs to check out the local Rugby Club.
As the old saying goes, "Soccer is a gentleman's game played by ruffians and Rugby is a ruffian's game played by gentlemen"...
Amongst the First XV of any Rugby team worldwide she'll find more than enough masculine gentlemen to put "paid" to her premise. Like I said, real men don't phone into talk radio.
Dear Mary, I really don't mean to be disagreeable, but I do differ with your opinion.
Men taking their eyes off Jesus Christ and His commandments - men putting their eyes on anything in this world instead of on Christ the Word of God, Our Crucified and Risen Messiah - this, this is what causes any man to fail to perceive and walk in his proper role.
It is impossible that a person or a multitude of persons outside yourself can force your eyes, your mind, your heart, to any direction you don't desire and will these parts of yourself to go. I concede that perhaps under torture a person may have their eyes taped or glued or pinned open so that they are forced to gaze upon something, but that is not the case with feminism or with the current state of men in general.
[B]ut each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire,A worldling may blame feminism or anything he chooses for his sins, but not a Christian.
he is dragged away and enticed.
James 1:14"Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him.
Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'"
Mark 7:15
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I see the subject as acting like Christ instead of acting like Adam:
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:45-48
To the contrary, I see DieHard as putting his finger right on it.
Thanks, .30Carbine.
In my view, accountability comes down to Mom. It is her job to raise the kids in the right way (and no I do not care what Feminists have to say about that) and it is Dad's job to be a good example for the boys and a protector for the girls and a good provider for the whole Family.
If Mom wants to earn: fine. But her full-time job should be looking after the kids: if she has spare time then a second income is good. But not mandatory.
You see, nobody can reach boys as effectively and as permanently as Mom. Nobody.
Mom will formulate the way boys see their roles in life: if she is disrespectful of her husband and asserting her legitimate Feminist rights and not letting her boys be -- well -- boys, then she will raise Wusses: or as we say in NZ "Great Big Girls Blouses" -- guys ill-equipped to take the knocks in life.
(And, naturally, if Dad isn't there to provide a strong example when Mom fails to do her job, then the Lad will have nobody to emulate and thus no hope in Hell of developing normally: he'll be a Blouse by default and thru no fault of his own.)
Happily, most Moms have done a good job raising their boys. True, a few boys are dysfunctional: either thru the lack of guidance from Mom or good example by Dad. But a surprisingly large number of boys get by and prosper with a solo parent.
Sure, some guys get raised to be Blouses, and they cop ridicule and probably phone into radio talk shows as a result. That's Social Darwinianism taking its toll.
Most men are spared that embarassment thanks to Mom.
It is a huge, huge stretch to say that two entire generations of men do not know how to be men, only how to be males. Bulldust, I say. In a Feminist's Dream. Hasn't happened, won't. Time somebody stood up to this nonsense and said so.
So I have.
This may as well be public, imho. Given my mood today, I started out replying privately. I don't think DieHard will have any problem with this being publically posted. If he does, he can ask the mod to remove it and that'd be fine with me. If DieHard is Aussie, that might explain a lot of the difference and perceived difference.
However, of the Aussies I saw in Taiwan, I'd be cautious about assuming too much on that score. Their bravado in many cases seems authentic and well earned. But the holes in the masculine soul of many is also evident. That's certainly true of South Africans I knew transplanted to Australia.
= = = =
I mean no disrespect to Dr Laura, but for her to say that most men have forgotten how to be men and are merely male (or to that effect) is a shrill exaggeration at best and a gross insult if taken at face value.
True, there is a huge problem with youth today. I get to see this on the street in my role as a Guardian Angel. Two themes, in each case, become apparent:
1) Mom does not know and/or does not care where the youth is, and
2) Dad is either in Gaol or is unknown.
Feminism has taken its toll in some families, and Dad has been displaced and replaced, relegated to some inconsequential scrap-heap somewhere as a superfluous influence.
But most families are not like that. And most men are not like that. Most of us have spines, and most of us have hind legs that we occasionally stand up on when riled. Most of us enjoy testosterone as much as we enjoy alcohol.
But most families are not like that. And most men are not like that. Most of us have spines, and most of us have hind legs that we occasionally stand up on when riled. Most of us enjoy testosterone as much as we enjoy alcohol.
Dr Laura's position is shrill and alarmist. Men have forgotten how to be men? C'mon! Don't kid a kidder -- nobody could seriously take that premise in earnest at face value.
Some men may have forgotten: these are ball-less wonders who run off on their families and leave their kids without a dad and leave mom in the lurch. Such specimens deserve what opprobrium we as a Society can muster, and in the maximum quantities permitted by Law and good taste.
But that is not the majority of men. Most of us are decent guys with secure personalities.
= = = =
I don't know the solid statistics on such. I do know the following.
1. Dr Laura is not fabricating stuff up. She hears endlessly of this problem from the women who call and some of the men.
2. I have looked for/at solid males, good fathers in families most of my 60 years of life--well before I became a psychologist. I suppose it depends on one's definition. I've been very disappointed to see the relatively low percentage of what I'd call solid, good fathers with secure identities etc.
3. It is still true that most men live quiet lives of desperation stretched beyond their training and often beyond their psyche's, values and coping skills to do things well in their primary relationships and their jobs.
4. It doesn't take much for me to scratch the surface of most men to find deep rooted and raging insecurities that leave them exhausted managing; covering up etc. Often it makes them brittle and presenting a surface arrogance and bravado that's harsh to cruel.
5. In Taiwan, amongst the leading captains of Western Industry--they were men in the sense that they were serious leaders in their professions and great achievers/over achievers on those fronts, in those arenas. They were above average on those scores compared to most of the men in a range of churches in California, Washington State, Oregon and New Mexico where I observed such.
6. However, those same captains of industry in Taiwan were typically significantly to grossly incompetent and significantly to grossly insecure in their primary relationships. Their relationships with their children were dreadful. They typically tried to out power everyone around them to avoid anyone hinting that they were less than perfect etc.
7. They routinely provoked their children to wrath from an early age. They rarely had time for relationships escaping into overwork chronically. Their wives felt and were largely deserted to fend for themselves and manage the kids. The lavish money and comforts available didn't seem to help much at all.
- - - - -
8. It is conceivable that your sample population is skewed in an opposite way than the majority of people we counselors see.
9. Nevertheless, I'd guesstimate that in the average BETTER church that I've been in--in the States and elsewhere--I'd guesstimate that 60-85% of the men have self-esteem, identity, masculinity, insecurity, false pride etc. issues of significant depth, breadth and intensity. And, that their primary relationships suffer greatly therefrom. Essentially, I believe that Dr Laura is right. She has detected a dreadful trend hazarding our society.
> If DieHard is Aussie, that might explain a lot of the difference and perceived difference.
(Big grin) It's OK -- lots of people make that mistake. I'm a Kiwi. My Mom & Dad are Canadian.
> I don't think DieHard will have any problem with this being publically posted.
Nope. No problem at all: this is a great thread and a topic worthy of spirited debate. What say you?
> 2. I have looked for/at solid males, good fathers in families most of my 60 years of life--well before I became a psychologist. I suppose it depends on one's definition. I've been very disappointed to see the relatively low percentage of what I'd call solid, good fathers with secure identities etc.
May I venture a good explanation for this? Few solid, good fathers with secure identities are likely to seek the aid and company of a psychologist? They're more likely to be taking their son to Aikido class, or to be watching the Rugby, or even hoisting one-or-three down at the Pub with their mates while the kids are doing piano lessons.
> 7. They routinely provoked their children to wrath from an early age. They rarely had time for relationships escaping into overwork chronically. Their wives felt and were largely deserted to fend for themselves and manage the kids. The lavish money and comforts available didn't seem to help much at all.
Most of the Lads I know see it this way: your kids give you one opportunity -- just one -- to share in the wonderful gift that is their childhood. You either take them up on that offer, or you don't. They will grow up regardless. You will either be in for a wonderful time full of magic and mystery and plenty of laughs, or you will miss out. Most of us, given the choice, try to opt in for the wonderful time.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of men who are lousy fathers: there are. I am saying that it is a huge stretch to confidently assert that most men have forgotten how to be men and are just merely males be default.
*DieHard*
Thanks. I think ALL the Kiwi's I've met overseas were rather mellow blokes. Not passive mellow, just not all fussed up about petty stuff.
I think you under rated my assertion that in my guesstimation 60-85% of the men I've observed in a variety of churches across a large geography have been greatly lacking in the traits . . . quite as Dr Laura describes. I could say the same thing about any other collection of men in groups above say a dozen or 3.
I do think from all I've seen, had contact with, read . . . that there MAY be SOME above average healthiness to the population of NZ from a number of perspectives. But you sure have your percentage of crazies, too. It just may be a considerably smaller percentage though that's not certain--according to my dear Christian brother I email with a lot there.
In most even better churches . . . I've had to think hard to think of men who'd persistently give up work time for kids and ball time. It's been dreadfully sad for me to see.
> I do think from all I've seen, had contact with, read . . . that there MAY be SOME above average healthiness to the population of NZ from a number of perspectives.
Child abuse/murder is an epidemic here. Sadly, it appears to be disproportionately skewed along racial lines: a quick Google will confirm that.
That said, most kids in NZ grow up healthy and balanced and are not abused.
Abuse in some areas of the Western world seems to be reaching epidemic proportions.
But, it's been predicted that lawlessness etc. would increase dramatically at the end of the age.
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