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To: topcat54
But that may merely reflect a lack of adequate perspective, rather than an explicit confirmation of Scriptural teaching on the subject. Where would one go in Scripture to confirm the idea that institutional failure is a reasonable assumption from kingdom principles?

You're misunderstanding my position. I don't assume ultimate failure, I simply equally don't assume ultimate success (both being defined in terms of institutional or organizational influence or power).

As far as adequate historical perspective, one need only look at the Roman Empire. The rapid expansion of Christian influence under Constantine did not prevent the eventual destruction of that empire.

The fundamental difference I see between your view and mine is that you view the temporal expansion of Christian influence in history as the the necessary result of the spiritual expansion of the Kingdom, whereas I view that expansion as an instrumental means of the spiritual expansion.

Notice how Paul tied praying for rulers, the desire for a peaceful life, with the spread of the gospel, that God desires all men to be saved.

Which ties right in with what I just said...

Since biblical knowledge is inseparably tied to right action, it seems difficult to take this and other passages to mean something other than the fact that the knowledge of God overspeading the earth will result is something other than cultural or institutional conforming to the Word of God.

Biblical knowledge is necessary for "right action" but it is not sufficient in and of itself for "right action." To be sure, the expansion of Christian influence would likely have a coincident restraining effect a la Calvin's "Second office of the Law", but when applied organizationally and institutionally such restraint is commonly relative and rarely long-lasting.

Certainly you don't believe that Christ is incapable of conquering the institutions of this age, so you must have explicit mandate from Scripture for that view that lack of progess in this age is part and parcel with His revealed will.

Of course I don't believe He is incapable, just as I doubt you believe He is incapable of expanding His covenant people despite (and often in the face of) a world hostile to it. However, to demand an "explicit mandate from Scripture" that it is God's revealed will that His covenant people have a "lack of progress" institutionally is hardly fair when there is no explicit mandate in Scripture that we will ultimately be institutionally successful prior to His return.

17 posted on 08/17/2006 12:57:18 PM PDT by Frumanchu (http://frumanchu.blogspot.com)
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To: Frumanchu
You're misunderstanding my position. I don't assume ultimate failure, I simply equally don't assume ultimate success (both being defined in terms of institutional or organizational influence or power).

So what you are saying is that there is a lack of explicit or "good and necessary" information in Scripture to decide one way or another.

As far as adequate historical perspective, one need only look at the Roman Empire. The rapid expansion of Christian influence under Constantine did not prevent the eventual destruction of that empire.

True, but isn't Rome a "special case" (cf. Dan. 2:44)? The prophets foretold the demise of the fourth kingdom as it gave way to the final kingdom of Christ.

One thing is certainly true, that in the wake of the fall of Rome no nation has since emerged in the likeness of Rome, a ruthless tyrant bent on conquering the whole world. I think as time goes one we are less likely to see this type of political force. I believe these brutish tendencies have been mitigated by the power of the gospel.

The fundamental difference I see between your view and mine is that you view the temporal expansion of Christian influence in history as the the necessary result of the spiritual expansion of the Kingdom, whereas I view that expansion as an instrumental means of the spiritual expansion.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. When you speak of instrumental, are you saying that the temporal expansion leads to spiritual expansion? Are we talking cause and effect?

19 posted on 08/17/2006 1:26:01 PM PDT by topcat54
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