DISPENSATIONALIST "CHRISTIAN" ZIONISM -- Is there now "neither Jew nor Gentile", or not?

KennethGentry.Com, "Dispensational Distortions" ^ | 2004 | Kenneth Gentry (and OP)

[fortheDeclaration]

No, Jesus bound him at the cross, before even, Luke 10:18. Even when he is loosed for a little while, he's on God's leash.

Satan was always under limits by God (Job 1-2).

Still God does give him power over that which he does rule (within limits)

[JohnnyM]

1 John 5:19 - We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Obviously, not all of of us know.

JM

[JohnnyM]

"Obviously, not all of of us know"

Obviously, not all of us can speak English.

JM

[fortheDeclaration]

he is not ruling anything on earth now This is incomprehensible. He rules me, He rules Dr. Eckleburg, He rules every believer, or does He? Who is your ruler?

We were talking in the context of the world's systems, not Christians, who have left the world system and been born again into the Kingdom of God.

But, even a Christian can turn himself back to Satan, even though he can never lose his salvation

Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world'(2Tim.4:10)

[1000 silverlings]

1 John 5:18

[JohnnyM]

we are talking about the world, not believers.

As believers Christ is our King. The world does not yet recognize Him as King.

JM

[1000 silverlings]

Well then we agree that Christians are in the Kingdom, Jesus is ruling it and us.

[1000 silverlings]

It doesn't matter if they recognize Him or not, He still rules the world.

[JohnnyM]

You better tell John that then:

"..the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."

JM

[JohnnyM]

His Kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36)

JM

[1000 silverlings]

If you are trying to say that the Kingdom of Heaven is not the Kingdom of God, then scripture does not support it.

.Matthew 13:24-38, tells of the Kingdom of Heaven, yet the children of that, the good seed, live in the world first. Verse 41:

The Son of Man ....shall gather out of His kingdom, all things that offend, and the tares do not go to Heaven...

The earth is His kingdom.

[1000 silverlings]

To be in God's Presence is to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. This is both immediate and future. When Christ came to earth the first time, the kingdom drew near,( Luke 10:11) and shortly thereafter, on hearing the gospel preached, people were rushing to get into it.(Matthew 21:31)

In some sense, Christ is the Kingdom, and all in Him are already in the kingdom. When He comes again, then those future events will unfold, but He is at once, both present and future, and so is His kingdom.

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

Israel--the descendants of Jacob--being front and center in this END TIMES era:

---

Thanks Quix I have been battling with this for about 6 months now. I am just jumping in here, I have not read any of this thread just your ping. So no flame wars, please.

Hubby and I have had many mental fencing days over this. He believe that Israel and the Jews are the chosen ones above us (and this is what I have believed all my life until about 6 months ago). I am still on the fence and can argue both sides but am leaning to disagree that The Cross changed all that and we are All The Church and the same, after The Cross.

I believe it all depends on what one believes about what happened on The Cross. The Cross is the center of the bible and both OT and NT hinge on what/when/where/why/how you believe on the event of The Cross.

Expecting to be gathered up in the air any second now!

I might not get back tonight (have to go to WT thread) but will as ASAP
LUB
Blessings

The only reasonable answer I come up with is and this isn't an answer is...

1 Timothy 1: 3As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,

4nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.


Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

[Quix]

Certainly those are excellent Scriptures re any Scriptural contentions.

I still think that the major thing about The descendants of Jacob is that they are A FULFILLMENT OF GOD'S PROMISE, COMMITMENT, COVENANT to HIS BUDDY, HIS FRIEND, Abraham.

Further, thaty God is using them as a super illustration to mankind and then to ALL Creation of many things about God's priorities, Majesty, Grandeur, Grace.

Certainly He will use the Church similarly but The Church is still "merely" GRAFTED IN. We were not the original main branch.

Just as God forgives us our shortcomings as we persist in our faith in Him; confess, repent etc. . . . God is able to forgive Jacob's descendants according to HIS SCRIPT in HIS TIME.

Doesn't mean an alternate route to salvation though I don't know how to persuade the naysayers of that. It's just a fact. Just because we don't understand the mediculous.

Certainly we are all still equal before The Cross.

Certainly The Cross is still the fulcrum of all history and all creation.

But God is a long way from being done using the descendants as an object lesson; an illustration; an embellishment of His Glory. An abundance of yet-to-be-fulfilled Scriptural prophecies make that super clear.

LUB,

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Cross changed all that and we are All The Church and the same, after The Cross. I believe it all depends on what one believes about what happened on The Cross. The Cross is the center of the bible and both OT and NT hinge on what/when/where/why/how you believe on the event of The Cross.

AMEN!

All history leads up to the cross and all history flows from the cross. From before the foundation of the world God ordained Christ to die and be resurrected from that cross for your salvation and mine.

And your tag proves it. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Certainly He will use the Church similarly but The Church is still "merely" GRAFTED IN. We were not the original main branch.

Merely? I'll quote from topcat's 713...

"Again, the language does not support limiting this to mere "blessings". The believing Jews and gentiles have received all the promises made to Israel. Because, as Paul tells us in Gal. 3, the promises were really made with the Seed, Jesus Christ. "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed,' who is Christ" (v. 16). All those who are "in Christ" are part of Abraham's true offspring and thus received the promises and blessings..."

Here's an excellent link...

TO THE JEW FIRST: A REFORMED PERSPECTIVE by Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And from the same website, a wonderful oldie but Godly...

WHY I BELIEVE IN GOD by Cornelius Van Til

[HarleyD]

Some of the words of that prayer were to this effect: "Lord, convert me, that I may be converted." Unmindful of the paradox, I prayed that prayer that night...

Ah, the Augustine's paradox; "Lord, command what you will and give what you command." Val Til is one who understood.

I was thinking how most Christians apply this paradox in just about every situation except salvation. Most of us believe God controls all things yet we must pray for things. God controls our lives yet we pray that we get that job promotion. If God grants it we thank Him that He gave it to us. If we do not get the promotion we feel that, that wasn't what God really desires for us. This is instinctive behavior for Christians. Only in salvation do we feel we make a choice.

[Quix]

True enough.

AND

those truths have

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

to do with displacing Jacob's blood descendants from their unique Covenanted blessings and promises in and from God Almighty.

Absolutely nothing.

[Quix]

Many good points in the doc.

Not a shred of it convinces me of a microgram's worth of Contrarian Replacementarianism but anyway.