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DISPENSATIONALIST "CHRISTIAN" ZIONISM -- Is there now "neither Jew nor Gentile", or not?
KennethGentry.Com, "Dispensational Distortions" ^ | 2004 | Kenneth Gentry (and OP)

Posted on 08/10/2006 12:22:56 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian

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To: PetroniusMaximus; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg
OK. Thanks for engaging. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that you do not wear women's underwear. Why not? Doesn't the passage you are referring to also clearly state that in Christ there is neither male or female???

Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear. Unfortunately, most of us Calvinists are so blessed, we have to go commando. It's just one of our burdens.


(In other words, please tell me you're not serious... are you genuinely unable to discern that the Apostle was speaking of our equal Kingdom Standing before God? See, as a Protestant, I like to believe that the average reader can read the Bible for himself -- please don't tell me that you think this passage really concerns underwear, and not our Jew-Gentile Kingdom Equivalence.)

21 posted on 08/10/2006 1:52:03 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; jude24; P-Marlowe; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; HarleyD
My friend, in the last thread, I spent as much or more word-count pointing out your personal attacks as I did responding to anything of substance. If you want to have a proper debate without the personal attacks, without the crowing, without the poisoning of the well, and without the vulgarity you demonstrated in the last thread, I'd be glad to. But your entry point into this one suggests otherwise, and I'd candidly rather debate TC--who, despite not being of your caliber, is far more civil than you've been of late--or HarleyD, who is consistantly the most civil Calvinist on this forum, as well as being incredibly articulate and challenging.

You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack.

If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.

22 posted on 08/10/2006 1:54:43 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy

Nice tagline. ;^)


23 posted on 08/10/2006 1:59:37 PM PDT by tioga
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To: Buggman
...the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack.

Good advice. I would hope the Neeners would heed it as well.

24 posted on 08/10/2006 2:00:29 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; xzins; blue-duncan; Buggman
Actually, British-Israelites will claim that the original inhabitants of Egypt and upper Ethiopia were... Whites.... we've already established where you're coming from, now we're just arguing about Price

Has any British Israelite ever posted a single post at Free Republic? I've never seen one. Yet you accuse those who believe that God has shown favor to the genetic descendants of Israel as the functional equivalent of White Power Replacement Theology Nazi's.

Frankly your point here, if it isn't to call everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is lost on me.

Do you find fault that God said "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?" Did not God curse the biological line of Esau?

What the heck is your point anyway?

25 posted on 08/10/2006 2:03:05 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (((172 * 3.141592653589793238462) / 180) * 10 = 30.0196631)
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To: Alex Murphy

We certainly try. Did you have a specific complaint?


26 posted on 08/10/2006 2:03:09 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy; Buggman; P-Marlowe
Good advice. I would hope the Neeners would heed it as well.

Too bad we don't keep a ping list.

27 posted on 08/10/2006 2:04:21 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Buggman
Did you have a specific complaint?

None that haven't already been submitted, and ignored, on other threads.

28 posted on 08/10/2006 2:06:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear."

Now THAT is something I did not want to know.


"In other words, please tell me you're not serious... are you genuinely unable to discern that the Apostle was speaking of our equal Kingdom Standing before God?"

Well there you go! "equal Kingdom Standing" - i.e. equality implies some form of division or distinction. The distinction between "Israel" and "Church" is a real distinction. One has not subsumed the other.

Here again, you absolute identification of "Israel" as the Church is dead wrong - as wrong as identifying all females as "male" based on the above misinterpretation of Scripture.

Israel, the Jews, the Hebrew people, literal, physical Jerusalem has a distinct and future role in prophetic events. Any honest reading of the NT (i.e. one not clouded by unnecessary theological presuppositions) shows that.
29 posted on 08/10/2006 2:07:33 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, if you catch me in one, do point it out to me. I try to stay away from attacking people while attacking ideas, but I won't say that I've never slipped.


30 posted on 08/10/2006 2:13:01 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


Hosea 3:4-5

31 posted on 08/10/2006 2:20:13 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: xzins

***Why is it that when it comes to practical application, the purist calvinists have more trouble with "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated"***

I always thought it was a reference to the nation or land area.
Jacob (Israel) I have loved and Esau (Edom) I have hated.


32 posted on 08/10/2006 2:28:15 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter)
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To: Buggman
Well, if you catch me in one, do point it out to me. I try to stay away from attacking people while attacking ideas, but I won't say that I've never slipped.

Ditto for me, and thanks for watching my back!

33 posted on 08/10/2006 2:34:44 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Frumanchu; Buggman
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ?

In my search for decent articles on the four views of the Millennium (many thanks to Frumanchu for offering to format and post the best candidate), the most consistent element that differentiated Dispensationalism from all other eschatological systems was that in Dispensationalism, God has a different redemptive plan for racial Jews - unique, separate and even superior to any other redemptive plan offered to any other racial group (Greeks, gentiles, etc). Some dispensationalists (Hal Lindsey for one) have even gone so far as to claim that fellow Christians are anti-semites for holding to other eschatological views.

Incredulously, we're the ones who are anti-semitic, for not supporting a racially-divided, two-redemptive-plan dispensational view of history, one that discounts the Body of Christ - His Church - as being merely a "great parenthesis" in God's prophetic timetable for man.

Sorry Buggman, but I have to side with OP on this one. I think he makes a good point with this thread. No offense meant, hopefully none taken.

34 posted on 08/10/2006 2:37:21 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Colossians 2:6)
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To: Buggman; xzins; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe
My friend, in the last thread, I spent as much or more word-count pointing out your personal attacks as I did responding to anything of substance.

In the "Last Thread", I didn't even get a chance to respond further before the Thread got Pulled on the basis of some Nazi-Godwin's Law name-calling for which I never offered my support on the first place (as I said in the Article prefacing this thread, I don't think that Dispys are Nazis -- I think it is absurd even to suggest such a thing. What I am SAYING (and what I have been trying to say), is that it is Biblically-Unlawful according to the New Testament for Dispys to Racially-Divide the People of God.

If you want to have a proper debate without the personal attacks, without the crowing, without the poisoning of the well, and without the vulgarity you demonstrated in the last thread, I'd be glad to. But your entry point into this one suggests otherwise, and I'd candidly rather debate TC--who, despite not being of your caliber, is far more civil than you've been of late--or HarleyD, who is consistantly the most civil Calvinist on this forum, as well as being incredibly articulate and challenging.

My "Entry Point" onto this thread was simply posting the Article... I did not accuse you of making "Ad Hominem" Arguments or not knowing how to debate. All that I did in response was point out that you had egregiously mis-defined one of the Classical Fallacies, for Debate purposes. Admittedly, my response to you was intentionally caustic; you attempted to apply the Rhetoric of Debate against me without proper command of the Logic. I dislike that approach, and so I responded with guns blazing -- and for that I apologize.

For myself, I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to a completely impartial and impersonal analysis of the contentions which I have raised in the above Article -- IF certain statements would Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Christian Identity preachers, then how much the more do they Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Dispensationalists? As I have said, having left the Terms of the Equation the Same, changing only the "Ethnic Group" Variables in question, I believe that my Analogic Reasoning is without Flaw.

You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack. If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.

You're not Jewish, Bugg.

So how is it "ad hominem" against you at all if I accuse Christ-Rejecting Jews of Hating God?

The Greek (not Hebrew) New Testament, which was written by God our Father in Greek (not Hebrew), teaches us in Greek (not Hebrew) "But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in Their Law, They Hated Me without a Cause." (John 15:25)

Jesus IS God.

If there is one thing I know about you, Buggman -- besides the fact that we both know what "standard 40-Point Disad Limit in GURPS" means -- it is this: you will always, honestly, and without reservation submit yourself and your own beliefs to the Bar of Scripture.

As will I.

If I have "committed an obvious slander", against you, against the Jews, whatever... then I will Repent. BUT FIRST -- if you demand a Public Apology on the basis of "calling the Jews 'God-hating' in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions"...

Then Prove it to me. From Scripture. The one Standard, Calvinist or Arminian or whatever, that we both terrifyingly Respect.

Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD.

Show me that, and you shall have whatever Apology you seek from me.

But Scripture first.

Best, OP

35 posted on 08/10/2006 2:39:55 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

***All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.***

Does this negate the words..
There is neither Jew nor Greek, Bond nor free, but all are ONE in Christ Jesus.

If so how many other verses get negated?


36 posted on 08/10/2006 2:42:17 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Democrats have never found a fight they couldn't run from...Ann Coulter)
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To: Alex Murphy
. . . the most consistent element that differentiated Dispensationalism from all other eschatological systems was that in Dispensationalism, God has a different redemptive plan for racial Jews - unique, separate and even superior to any other redemptive plan offered to any other racial group (Greeks, gentiles, etc)

The wording on that is a bit vague: In what way do you perceive Dispensationalism presenting "a different redemptive plan for racial Jews"?

37 posted on 08/10/2006 2:43:26 PM PDT by Buggman (www.brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; xzins; P-Marlowe
Well there you go! "equal Kingdom Standing" - i.e. equality implies some form of division or distinction.

Um, no. For example, 1=1... no division or distinction.

Maybe I should turn you onto some of Pastor Steve Schlissel's sermons from "Messiah's Congregation", NYC -- did it ever occur to any of you "Israel-uber-alles" folks that Converted Orthodox Jews might like the idea of simply doing their part towards the Irresistible Advance of Christ's Heavenly Kingdom?

Oh, never mind.... it's a Calvinist thang, you wouldn't understand.

38 posted on 08/10/2006 2:49:28 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
OP: Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD.

Is this not true of all people who are not Christians? Why single out one group for the label?

39 posted on 08/10/2006 2:50:26 PM PDT by rabid liberty (pray for the peace of Jerusalem -- psa. 122:6)
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To: P-Marlowe; jude24; George W. Bush; Dr. Eckleburg; Buggman; xzins
Has any British Israelite ever posted a single post at Free Republic? I've never seen one. Yet you accuse those who believe that God has shown favor to the genetic descendants of Israel as the functional equivalent of White Power Replacement Theology Nazi's. Frankly your point here, if it isn't to call everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is lost on me. Do you find fault that God said "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?" Did not God curse the biological line of Esau? What the heck is your point anyway?

My Point is that Galatians 3:28 should be taken as an ABSOLUTE LAW of Biblical interpretation, and on that basis ALL Racially-Divisive Theologies of Christianity should be rejected out of hand.

British-Israelism, Christian Identity, Dispensationalism, doesn't matter -- DO NOT PASS GO, Do not Collect Tithes and Offerings from the Faithful.

Neither Jew nor Gentile. Period. End of Story.
May GOD DAMN all Racially-Divisive "Christian" theologies.

40 posted on 08/10/2006 3:02:44 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty -- Luke 17:10)
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