Posted on 08/10/2006 12:22:56 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
A Young Fool encounters Foolishness
Once upon a time, I was but a wee child in Reformed Theology, taking my first baby-steps into the beautiful Cathedral of Calvinism as a young Debater for Jerry Falwell's world-beating Liberty Debate Team (Our Creed: "Defeat Harvard. Defeat Navy. Defeat American Catholic. Defeat everyone. Crush them all, every time, no exceptions. Win every single National Championship, every year.... because as long as we Calvinists keep winning, Jerry won't excommunicate us for being Calvinists!!".)
Since a Debater is always expected to be able to immediately argue either side of any given question, I spent a lot of time in the local used book-store picking up various books on philosophy and theology and politics and economics... anything I could get my dirt-poor hands on for $2 or $3 dollars a copy. Anything to familiarize myself with multiple intellectual perspectives and multiple modes of argumentation.
Now, in the course of my researches, I happened across a little book entitled War Cycles, Peace Cycles by Richard Kelly Hoskins of Lynchburg, Virginia, regarding the short and long-term economic effects of Monetary Expansions and Contractions in the context of fractional-reserve lending. Hoskins was by no means an uneducated fellow (a capable Financial Advisor and Econometricist, some of his works are still occasionally cited today), but I was singularly disturbed by several passages in which he seemed to suggest a Racial component to Fractional-Reserve Lending (which he called "the Babylon System") versus his contrary suggestions for Joint-Venture Lending.
One passage which stood out in my mind read as follows:
The further I read, the more it was apparent to me that Hoskins regarded "Israel" as The White Race, the Adamic Race descended through Abraham, and that all Non-Whites were considered to him to be zuwr "strangers": Pagans at worst, "Samaritan" Christians at best... but never "Israel".
And so, being the young fool that I was, I did what any young fool would do... I looked Dick Hoskins up in the Lynchburg, Virginia phone book, and called him at his house.
I asked him what he would make of my spiritual position -- a Confessing Christian by Faith, mostly Prussian German by Ethnicity, but with a little 1/16 smidgen of Sioux Nation mixed in 3 or 4 generations back on my mother's side.
Hoskins informed me, quite cordially and without any rancor whatsoever, that God considered me to be a mixed-breed Bastard and that "A Bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:2) He advised me to marry "one of my own kind".
Well, I decided at that point (even before I knew him to be the godfather of the "Phinehas Priesthood", the most violent expression of the Christian Identity movement) that even if he was a good money-runner, Dick Hoskins' theology was a barrel full of wet, smelly, foolish Scheißdreck, with which I would have no truck whatsoever. The Christian Creed is this: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28, KJV).
Unfortunately, however, "Christian Identity" (derived not from pagan Nazism but rather from its bastard godfather, British Israelism) is not the only theology which Racially divides the Body of Christ into Jew and Gentile, "Israel" and "Not-Israel", Blood and Blood-lines.
Dispensational Zionist Foolishness
The future dispensational kingdom involves a racial prejudice favoring the Jews above even saved Gentiles during the millennium. As such it re-introduces the distinction between Jew and Gentile and replaces Faith with Race as a basis for divine favor. Consider the following citations from leading dispensationalists: (DISPENSATIONAL DISTORTIONS PART TWO, Redemptive History Distortions ~~ Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D.)
However, with the establishment of the New Testament phase of the Church, the distinction between Jew and Gentile has been abolished. This was the whole point of Peter's vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals in Acts 10: "What God has called clean, let no man call unclean." Thus, there is no separate Jewish program exalting them over saved Gentiles. THE CHURCH, which includes Jew and Gentile in one body, is the fruition and culmination of God's promises to the Jews. In evidence of this, we should note that Christians are called by distinctively Jewish names in the New Testament. "He is a Jew, which is one inwardly" (Rom. 2:29). Christians are called "the circumcision" (Phil. 3:3), "the children" and "the seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7, 29), the "Jerusalem which is above" and the "children of the promise" (Gal. 4:24-29). In fact, Christians compose "the Israel of God" for we are a "new creature" regarding which "circumcision availeth nothing" (Gal. 6:16).
Comparing Foolishness with Foolishness
In closing, I ask only (according to the Hebrew logical-interpretive method of "how much the more?")... if the heretical British-Israel/Christian-Identity Racialists pervert True Christianity by dividing the People of God along Racial lines, then how much the more do Dispensationalists also pervert the Word of God and divide the People of God along equally Racialist lines?
Consider the following:
Those aren't Quotations from Richard Kelly Hoskins... granted, they may sound like Christian Identity quotations, but they aren't.
These are nothing less than direct quotations from the leading lights of Dispensationalism in America -- Ryrie, Pentecost, Walvoord, Hoyt, Hunt, Thomas Ice. (I could've quoted Hagee, I suppose, but the man is absolutely freakin' nutbar).
All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.
God Damn all Racial Theology.
Because, often as not, I don't even wear underwear. Unfortunately, most of us Calvinists are so blessed, we have to go commando. It's just one of our burdens.
(In other words, please tell me you're not serious... are you genuinely unable to discern that the Apostle was speaking of our equal Kingdom Standing before God? See, as a Protestant, I like to believe that the average reader can read the Bible for himself -- please don't tell me that you think this passage really concerns underwear, and not our Jew-Gentile Kingdom Equivalence.)
You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack.
If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.
Nice tagline. ;^)
Good advice. I would hope the Neeners would heed it as well.
Has any British Israelite ever posted a single post at Free Republic? I've never seen one. Yet you accuse those who believe that God has shown favor to the genetic descendants of Israel as the functional equivalent of White Power Replacement Theology Nazi's.
Frankly your point here, if it isn't to call everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi, is lost on me.
Do you find fault that God said "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated?" Did not God curse the biological line of Esau?
What the heck is your point anyway?
We certainly try. Did you have a specific complaint?
Too bad we don't keep a ping list.
None that haven't already been submitted, and ignored, on other threads.
Well, if you catch me in one, do point it out to me. I try to stay away from attacking people while attacking ideas, but I won't say that I've never slipped.
Afterward shall the children of Israel return, {{WE ARE RIGHT HERE TODAY}} and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Hosea 3:4-5
***Why is it that when it comes to practical application, the purist calvinists have more trouble with "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated"***
I always thought it was a reference to the nation or land area.
Jacob (Israel) I have loved and Esau (Edom) I have hated.
Ditto for me, and thanks for watching my back!
In my search for decent articles on the four views of the Millennium (many thanks to Frumanchu for offering to format and post the best candidate), the most consistent element that differentiated Dispensationalism from all other eschatological systems was that in Dispensationalism, God has a different redemptive plan for racial Jews - unique, separate and even superior to any other redemptive plan offered to any other racial group (Greeks, gentiles, etc). Some dispensationalists (Hal Lindsey for one) have even gone so far as to claim that fellow Christians are anti-semites for holding to other eschatological views.
Incredulously, we're the ones who are anti-semitic, for not supporting a racially-divided, two-redemptive-plan dispensational view of history, one that discounts the Body of Christ - His Church - as being merely a "great parenthesis" in God's prophetic timetable for man.
Sorry Buggman, but I have to side with OP on this one. I think he makes a good point with this thread. No offense meant, hopefully none taken.
In the "Last Thread", I didn't even get a chance to respond further before the Thread got Pulled on the basis of some Nazi-Godwin's Law name-calling for which I never offered my support on the first place (as I said in the Article prefacing this thread, I don't think that Dispys are Nazis -- I think it is absurd even to suggest such a thing. What I am SAYING (and what I have been trying to say), is that it is Biblically-Unlawful according to the New Testament for Dispys to Racially-Divide the People of God.
If you want to have a proper debate without the personal attacks, without the crowing, without the poisoning of the well, and without the vulgarity you demonstrated in the last thread, I'd be glad to. But your entry point into this one suggests otherwise, and I'd candidly rather debate TC--who, despite not being of your caliber, is far more civil than you've been of late--or HarleyD, who is consistantly the most civil Calvinist on this forum, as well as being incredibly articulate and challenging.
My "Entry Point" onto this thread was simply posting the Article... I did not accuse you of making "Ad Hominem" Arguments or not knowing how to debate. All that I did in response was point out that you had egregiously mis-defined one of the Classical Fallacies, for Debate purposes. Admittedly, my response to you was intentionally caustic; you attempted to apply the Rhetoric of Debate against me without proper command of the Logic. I dislike that approach, and so I responded with guns blazing -- and for that I apologize.
For myself, I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to a completely impartial and impersonal analysis of the contentions which I have raised in the above Article -- IF certain statements would Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Christian Identity preachers, then how much the more do they Racially-Divide the Body of Christ if spoken by Dispensationalists? As I have said, having left the Terms of the Equation the Same, changing only the "Ethnic Group" Variables in question, I believe that my Analogic Reasoning is without Flaw.
You can start by publicly apologizing for calling the Jews "God-hating" in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions--the fact that an ad hominem is not said to your opponent directly does not make it any less a personal attack. If you're not Christian enough to repent of an obvious slander, then I have no interest in debating with you. Period. Have a nice day.
You're not Jewish, Bugg.
So how is it "ad hominem" against you at all if I accuse Christ-Rejecting Jews of Hating God?
The Greek (not Hebrew) New Testament, which was written by God our Father in Greek (not Hebrew), teaches us in Greek (not Hebrew) "But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in Their Law, They Hated Me without a Cause." (John 15:25)
Jesus IS God.
If there is one thing I know about you, Buggman -- besides the fact that we both know what "standard 40-Point Disad Limit in GURPS" means -- it is this: you will always, honestly, and without reservation submit yourself and your own beliefs to the Bar of Scripture.
As will I.
If I have "committed an obvious slander", against you, against the Jews, whatever... then I will Repent. BUT FIRST -- if you demand a Public Apology on the basis of "calling the Jews 'God-hating' in the previous thread, and swearing to abandon such rhetoric in all future discussions"...
Then Prove it to me. From Scripture. The one Standard, Calvinist or Arminian or whatever, that we both terrifyingly Respect.
Show me clearly, from Scripture, that Christ-Rejecting Jews do not HATE GOD.
Show me that, and you shall have whatever Apology you seek from me.
But Scripture first.
Best, OP
***All that I did was to replace "Israel" with "The White Race", and replace "Gentiles" with "Non-Whites".
Does Dispensationalist "theology" destroy the Racial equality of the Body of Christ? What you see is what you get.***
Does this negate the words..
There is neither Jew nor Greek, Bond nor free, but all are ONE in Christ Jesus.
If so how many other verses get negated?
The wording on that is a bit vague: In what way do you perceive Dispensationalism presenting "a different redemptive plan for racial Jews"?
Um, no. For example, 1=1... no division or distinction.
Maybe I should turn you onto some of Pastor Steve Schlissel's sermons from "Messiah's Congregation", NYC -- did it ever occur to any of you "Israel-uber-alles" folks that Converted Orthodox Jews might like the idea of simply doing their part towards the Irresistible Advance of Christ's Heavenly Kingdom?
Oh, never mind.... it's a Calvinist thang, you wouldn't understand.
Is this not true of all people who are not Christians? Why single out one group for the label?
My Point is that Galatians 3:28 should be taken as an ABSOLUTE LAW of Biblical interpretation, and on that basis ALL Racially-Divisive Theologies of Christianity should be rejected out of hand.
British-Israelism, Christian Identity, Dispensationalism, doesn't matter -- DO NOT PASS GO, Do not Collect Tithes and Offerings from the Faithful.
Neither Jew nor Gentile. Period. End of Story.
May GOD DAMN all Racially-Divisive "Christian" theologies.
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